Let's have a serious discussion about sides on dust2

[iquizzle]

Here's the thread poca made when his T team went 30-0: http://edge-gamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2105808

But this actually proves my point. It's like "remember that one time when Ts shutout the counterterrorists?" It was like this shocking amazing thing.

But CTs have shutouts on Ts every single day and no one would ever think to make a post about that because it's so commonplace.

 

[SKYLINEGTR]

When it come down to it Dust2 is the same as Office.

Dust2: T's have to rush and CT's can camp their spawn area as much as they desire.
Office: CT's have to rush and T's can camp their spawn area as much as they desire.

If you look at Office the same exact nade problem is seen as you have mentioned in Dust. It all comes down to getting lucky really and hoping there is a large group of CT/T's stacking on one another when you launch your nade. Like everyone has mentioned earlier, even though one map maybe sided towards one group it can be overcome; teamwork is the key in this equation. I have played a lot of Dust2 servers and the only ones that I find nades working really well is when NO BLOCK is turned off. When that happens its hard to go by someone without being affected by the same nade geared towards them in the first place. However, I don't see it as much with NO BLOCK turned on.

Anyways, it all comes down to teamwork. If you know how to overcome your opponent and know how to work the map properly, those problems mentioned should be lowered. But as always a lot of people like to rush, don't know how to use flashes properly, and or, sit and camp in obvious nade throwing areas (i.e. long hall, short A, paper, etc.).

Also, glad your having fun in eGO servers. I'll try my best to jump into Dust2 more and get to know some of the other regulars there. Haven't really ventured into most of the eGO servers besides Italy and Office.

 

[crypto]

Not sure if you were playing back when buy time was much longer but nade spamming so such a problem then. I would like the flashes to be reduced to 1 and nade damage increase like on DOD and maybe only allow so many to be purchased by a team. Not sure how that would work but it would make for a fun game.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

nade damage increase like on DOD

Aside from the obvious fact that this wouldn't help.... at all....
CS:GO beta had 1 hit kill grenades for a while.... The outrage got it changed in a matter of days.

 

[iquizzle]

Not sure if you were playing back when buy time was much longer but nade spamming so such a problem then. I would like the flashes to be reduced to 1 and nade damage increase like on DOD and maybe only allow so many to be purchased by a team. Not sure how that would work but it would make for a fun game.

Yeah, 48 flashes per team every round is pretty outrageous. People throw them away like garbage because it doesn't really matter. One of the other 23 people can throw their flashes and blind the entire opposing team... or you just pick more up off of a dead body. I don't think restricting to 1 flash per person would help or hurt the CT sidedness, but it would be less annoying.

The he nades and paras are really what kills it for Ts.

 

[SKYLINEGTR]

It all really comes down to not being in the wrong areas. When you play the map more and more on each side you can figure out which areas you should not be camping, and or, simply near because of continuous flashes and nades. If you can do that, and avoid unnecessary rushing, one can do very well no matter which side he/she has chosen.

What kills it for each side is no teamwork, random people rushing, and a lot of people clumping together in bad spots and getting hit by grenades. I would take some time and play each game on one side and then switch when the server does a restart. Learn the different areas on both teams because restricting grenades or flashes isn't the answer.

I will agree though, that teamflashes are what kills it for me sometimes when playing Dust2/Office.

 

[JunK]

actually T side on dust2 can be the most dominate side on any map i've seen yet. the problem is it takes team work and people to actually listen to pull this off.
Ts can easily win by rushing. sure CTs are covering every point, but only 5-6 of them at each one. Ts have 20 that they can rush one point with (tho thats not ideal i'll explain in a min), just overpowering them by numbers alone.

for instance, you get 12 or so to rush long A outright, people need to go defend, from there you sneak the rest into short A clearing out A completely. everybody stuck mid and B will be forced to do exactly what the Ts need to, rush in and disarm the bomb while the remaining Ts are camping it out.

the most unfun i've ever had on CS in the years and years i've played is when CT is on the losing side of dust2. that being said, the most FUN i've ever had is being on the winning T side on dust2.

all you can really do is lead by example, go to T side, and do your best to rally people into rushing with you etc. even if you fail you'll fail epically. i even wrote a guide on dust2, tho i have no idea where it is now since that was years ago.

every map in CSS is basically the same. one side needs to rush while the other camps. the camping team always has the positional advantage because the rushing team has the numbers advantage. Ts just need to use their advantage on dust2 and not sit around mid/tunnels and wait to die. that is all you're doing too, waiting to die, which they all do

 

[MGR]

I'm sure someone's already said this, but the T's need to play as a team. 90% of the time that the T's lose is because they have no game plan and just kind of lolligag around getting a pick here and there and following the bomb. The map really isn't that ct sided at all. If you watch ESEA matches on youtube you will see that most of the time, Dust 2 is a fairly even and competitive map. Why? Teamwork, my friend. Since there are 5,000 people on our Dust 2 server at any given time it can be difficult to work as a team. Just think about this though... 20 t's rush into B against (at most) 8 CT's... who do you think's gonna win that battle?

TL;DR T's need to work as a team; the map is not CT sided.

 

[Muffs]

I'm sure someone's already said this, but the T's need to play as a team. 90% of the time that the T's lose is because they have no game plan and just kind of lolligag around getting a pick here and there and following the bomb. The map really isn't that ct sided at all. If you watch ESEA matches on youtube you will see that most of the time, Dust 2 is a fairly even and competitive map. Why? Teamwork, my friend. Since there are 5,000 people on our Dust 2 server at any given time it can be difficult to work as a team. Just think about this though... 20 t's rush into B against (at most) 8 CT's... who do you think's gonna win that battle?

TL;DR T's need to work as a team; the map is not CT sided.

T's on that map once in an orange moon, will rush

 

[JunK]

also, Ts can reach every 'choke point' slightly before CTs, allowing them to flash and blind the CTs. all you gotta do is rush there (and not with your AK out).
so you are all rushing to B? you won't all get flashed and naded in that tunnel because technically all the CTs in B should be blinded and now hiding behind the door, in the corner, and behind the car.

 

[Raul Tha Monk]

There is a reason i stay off from Dust 2 its just not fun because Its hard for the T's to win and everyone is try Harding it would be fun if we custom the map where it has more ways to walk threw for the less camping

 

[XxDoomxX]

You cant just select one map rotation and start pointing fingers because it was a big difference at how many rounds CTs won over Ts, because I have seen numbers similar in favor of the Ts.
Dust 2 is fine how it is. You just need practice playing in order to stay alive and rush smart.
If Ts stick together, it works real well. Teamwork is key.

-DOOM

 

[iquizzle]

There is a reason i stay off from Dust 2 its just not fun because Its hard for the T's to win and everyone is try Harding it would be fun if we custom the map where it has more ways to walk threw for the less camping

I agree. And the only argument I've ever heard against what you say is the same old banter. "Ts need to work as a team blah blah". CTs should have to work as a team too, but they don't. They just have to throw off their nades and flashes and spam the doors.

The Ts aren't some regular group that is at all organized. They're not. They're a bunch of random players that show up and play on the server. You can say what you want all day about what Ts need to do to win and nobody will disagree. But I guarantee you that from now until the end of time, nothing will change. People have been saying this forever. Everyone that plays on T already knows it. But when your rush has to be so perfectly timed or else half of your team gets blinded and naded while the rest are killed, it just doesn't happen very often.

All I've heard is that if Ts do everything perfectly, they can win. Sure, we all knew that. What I'm saying is the odds are heavily stacked against them because of the way the server is setup. This does not negate the ability of the Ts to win, but on any given day, with any given team, it's going to be CTs-20 Ts-3.

If you guys aren't interested in trying to change that, I understand. You have a formula that gets a lot of people on the server. I wish someone would just come out and say it.

 

[labowsky]

so you want wins to practically handed to you?
be more fair?
where is the fun in that?
now i don't play dust 2 but i was a regular on dust one and that as well is a ct sided map.
part of the fun, when you have a good team, is organizing difference strats to try and trick the CT's. you are always trying to get the one up on them or see if you can catch one guy slipping up.

if it was more fair and you don't have to work as hard CSS in general wont be as much fun.
i donno i see it as out smarting your enemy and it feels better that way when you win a match cause you actually had to use your brain a bit not just RUN AND GUN RUN AND GUN.

TLR go play COD if you don't like a challenge.

PS: not a flame.

 

[MoSTaR #GH]

Yes Ts do have to work harder to get wins but thats part of the fun in being a T on the server. People want to work as a team together and beat the CTs which drives many people to play T.

CT gets boring, people want to play on T. If you remove some stuff from Cts like nades and paras then as labowsky said the wins would be handed to you. Its very rewarding when you earn a win, and thats what keeps Ts coming back on our Dust2 server

 

[iquizzle]

so you want wins to practically handed to you?
be more fair?
where is the fun in that?
now i don't play dust 2 but i was a regular on dust one and that as well is a ct sided map.
part of the fun, when you have a good team, is organizing difference strats to try and trick the CT's. you are always trying to get the one up on them or see if you can catch one guy slipping up.

if it was more fair and you don't have to work as hard CSS in general wont be as much fun.
i donno i see it as out smarting your enemy and it feels better that way when you win a match cause you actually had to use your brain a bit not just RUN AND GUN RUN AND GUN.

TLR go play COD if you don't like a challenge.

PS: not a flame.

Wins practically handed to you... That's what the CTs have already. So I guess you've agreed that something needs to change.

I don't need to play COD if I want an easy game. I just have to switch teams!


I think you're misinterpreting the point of this post. I'm not here to criticize your clan. I think you guys are doing a fantastic job. You don't have to go into defensive mode. I'm simply trying to suggest that there *might* be a better way of setting up the d2 server that does not disadvantage the Ts as much. No server is perfect because no map is perfect considering the variability in the number of players on a map.

If there hypothetically *was* a way of making the sides more even, wouldn't that be something worth doing? Wouldn't that actually make the game more challenging and fun for both sides? From the feedback I'm getting, it seems you guys want it to be as hard as possible for the Ts and as easy as possible for the CTs.

 

[labowsky]

Wins practically handed to you... That's what the CTs have already. So I guess you've agreed that something needs to change.

I don't need to play COD if I want an easy game. I just have to switch teams!


I think you're misinterpreting the point of this post. I'm not here to criticize your clan. I think you guys are doing a fantastic job. You don't have to go into defensive mode. I'm simply trying to suggest that there *might* be a better way of setting up the d2 server that does not disadvantage the Ts as much. No server is perfect because no map is perfect considering the variability in the number of players on a map.

If there hypothetically *was* a way of making the sides more even, wouldn't that be something worth doing? Wouldn't that actually make the game more challenging and fun for both sides? From the feedback I'm getting, it seems you guys want it to be as hard as possible for the Ts and as easy as possible for the CTs.

first i wasn't trying to make it sound like you were criticizing eGO, sorry 'bout that.
thats the whole point of the game though, you are not understanding the point of it.
one team is ALWAYS at a disadvantage. doesn't matter if its hostages, or demolition one team always has the shorter stick.
yes it is easy to win on CTS when you are against a bunch of random pubs, but whatever thats not going to change.

 

[iquizzle]

first i wasn't trying to make it sound like you were criticizing eGO, sorry 'bout that.
thats the whole point of the game though, you are not understanding the point of it.
one team is ALWAYS at a disadvantage. doesn't matter if its hostages, or demolition one team always has the shorter stick.
yes it is easy to win on CTS when you are against a bunch of random pubs, but whatever thats not going to change.

I do understand the point. I've been playing *almost* this exact server setup for about 8-9 years, and long before CS:S even existed. D2 and scoutzknives are almost exclusively the only maps I play. So when I say that this server is unbalanced, it's not because I just came in yesterday and saw the Ts lose a few times.

You are correct. One team is always at a disadvantage. I've agreed with this a half dozen times. However, there are ways of making Ts less disadvantaged on this map. I think you guys have made it clear that you don't intend to change anything, so I'll hang it up here. Your server, your rules. As someone who owned a server for several years, I'm a supporter of that philosophy.

 

[BeerDowner]

A lot of great points brought up. I for one try to follow rushes as a terrorist, I seem to have terrible luck calling them. For nade damage as a T I try to hold off on going up short or peeking into B until after the 2 minute mark, it doesn't always work but sometimes its best to wait until after the pre-nades. Big issue I have seen in the last few days is the CT's having 5-10 people rushing and allowing the unorganized T's to get free bomb plants. I am all for rushing but watching 5-10 CT's stack a location and get 3 kills between them all is just sad IMO.