What's wrong with Jail...

[RedDragonKnight]

In so doing, remove most of the little freedom and fun the Ts still get. That's asking a bit much, IMO.

What's fun for me has always been the challenge of rebelling. Singling out the guard that's too close and leaping out of a stack and backstabbing him to get his gun is fun. Detouring over to a guard on the ground floor and killing him because the warden doesn't care isn't challenging or fun.

Now obviously everyone isn't going to think the same way I do. Still though, I fail to see how detouring slightly off a path or going slowly adds any real freedom or fun to the game, not even including the fact where most wardens are going to say you can't do it anyway.

It may only take 2 seconds to say no detours no delays, but when it must be said after almost every order, it's going to take a small chunk out of the roundtime and will add up relatively quickly. Having it go back to being implied does not remove the freedom they have, as any warden can say hey you can detour or delay. It really isn't different, as its ultimately in the wardens power whether or not you have this "freedom."

 

[c-whit?]

I think you're all missing the point here.

The ts still have their freedom. They can push wsda and use their mouse. Just because the warden said something doesn't mean that their keyboards break and they become bots. The way I see it, if a T is going to rebel, then he is going to rebel. It doesn't matter what the warden says, the warden could say, "All ts freeze while we shoot you...." and the ts could still rebel. The opportunity to rebel ALWAYS exists, no matter what the warden says...So no, it wouldnt be just CT versus bots... I doubt a T who is planning on rebelling thinks, "Oh no, now I cant rebel because the warden said to freeze so he can shoot us..." If the t has the predisposition to rebel, then he rebels.

You're right. If a T is going to rebel, then he'll rebel. I agree with you 100% with that point. This is probably all we agree to however.

As a CT, you spawn with guns. As a T, you spawn with a knife. That's an important fact. As a CT, you give orders to control the Ts. Why must anything be implied with these orders? Can you not use a microphone to express your thoughts in coherent and intelligent commands?

Is it not the point of this server for T's to find ways to rebel? Is it not the point of this server for T's to find loopholes between orders and rebel? These are rhetoric questions, as all the answers are "YES".

By implying "No cheating", you simply do 2 things: 1) Make Lazy CT's because you simply took away all the freedoms given to the T's and 2) Take away a major part of the server in which T's have to find loopholes in orders to win, to become last T, or to kill CTs.

But we dont see that nowadays, I just see a bunch of ts (or bots you could say) follow orders like robots until the warden "slips" and then they pounce. Its boring. The ts have lost the need to find creative ways to rebel, like plan as a team ahead of time to all run together somewhere, or the t with a smoke throws it while the t with the pistol shoots the warden on the first movement command etc... because they just wait until the warden screws up.

You must be on a different server than I am. When the rule was present, the only thing T's could do was follow the orders exactly. In fact, even when they did follow the orders, massive freekilling took place as CT's believed they took an extra step or took an extra breath that they didn't like.

Thus, CT's vs. Bots. The only thing the T can do is follow orders. They were so restricted that they had to ponder whether or not they could even breathe properly. If they were breathing too much, BAM, dead.

That's not the server we want to run. In fact, that's EXACTLY why the rule was removed and exactly why the server was struggling to such a degree before. Remember, before the change, the Jail server was hovering anywhere from Rank #1800-2000. Currently the rank of the server is #700 and has been as high as #400. One of the reasons the rule was removed was actually on behalf of the complaints we received.

Now, I understand your position, however, it's not a good one. Limiting the T's freedom is just dumb. Especially, when as a CT you spawn with guns.

Whether or not the warden removes these opportunities is MUCH different than if we, as leadership/server, remove them automatically. It's about precedent. And i'm not sure if we're ready to go there yet, as it's a very slippery slope.
Again, I CHALLENGE you to play as a T for a month.

I'm all for discussion of changes, but let's be productive in changes. Meaning, unless you have compelling evidence of your point, I don't think we're going to move on this standstill. So let's discuss other ways around this. What can we be doing otherwise?

As I stated before, we need to more clearly define detour/delaying vs. Rebelling.

Please see post above.

It may only take 2 seconds to say no detours no delays, but when it must be said after almost every order, it's going to take a small chunk out of the roundtime and will add up relatively quickly. Having it go back to being implied does not remove the freedom they have, as any warden can say hey you can detour or delay. It really isn't different, as its ultimately in the wardens power whether or not you have this "freedom."

There is a difference as not all wardens do state it. So why take the opportunities away from the T's to have a chance to rebel?

I Challenge you to play as T for one month, then we can discuss these more realistically.

 

[c-whit?]

On a final note here, we are discussing this in leadership still. Give us some time and we'll let you all know what we come up with.

We're trying to discuss every possible angle so that we can make the best possible decision. It also gives us time to play devil's advocate with each other so that we make sure the decision is good.

Thanks for the patience guys!

 

[RedDragonKnight]

By implying "No cheating", you simply do 2 things: 1) Make Lazy CT's because you simply took away all the freedoms given to the T's and 2) Take away a major part of the server in which T's have to find loopholes in orders to win, to become last T, or to kill CTs.

With the exception of a few people, most of the CTs are already incredibly lazy. If you're ever the warden and are watching a race, simply ask your team who they think one. Most of the time, no CT will ever answer you because they never watched the game or cared to observe the victors. And really, if this is such a major part of the server, I don't see why wardens are allowed to disallow it at all. The majority of loopholes to be found are the ones purposely left by wardens who think its "fun" to see their team massacred. The rest are there because wardens either forget or straight up don't even know that they have to say no detours or delays.

You must be on a different server than I am. When the rule was present, the only thing T's could do was follow the orders exactly. In fact, even when they did follow the orders, massive freekilling took place as CT's believed they took an extra step or took an extra breath that they didn't like.

Thus, CT's vs. Bots. The only thing the T can do is follow orders. They were so restricted that they had to ponder whether or not they could even breathe properly. If they were breathing too much, BAM, dead.

This still exists if you've ever seen CTs murdering Ts every round on the first order out of cells, usually resulting in half the team dead. If having no detours/delays implied was causing CTs to kill people for deviating, then having a warden disallow it should produce the same result. It does not. Strict CTs are the problem in those cases, not what the rules have as implied.

Remember, before the change, the Jail server was hovering anywhere from Rank #1800-2000. Currently the rank of the server is #700 and has been as high as #400. One of the reasons the rule was removed was actually on behalf of the complaints we received.

While there may be a correlation between the 2, there is no distinct evidence that no longer having no detours/delays as implied caused server ranks to increase. Credits were added and many other rules were changed as well. Jails rank when the new rules were added, was rank #748, equivalent to what it is now. During the last 4 months, The server was never in quadruple digits, with the last recorded time it was past 1000 being October 2012. On the day the rules were changed, I updated the server rankings thread after not doing so for 2 months. The thread is there, and jail was never in the 2,000s.
Ironically, even after the rule changes, Jails rank continued to drop, only starting to rise when credits were added in their initial state. The relationship between the rules and rank does not exist. The rule changes didn't help anything as shown by the continued rank drop prior to the addition of credits. The rank was actually higher on the day before the rule changes than it is now.

Now, I understand your position, however, it's not a good one. Limiting the T's freedom is just dumb. Especially, when as a CT you spawn with guns. Again, I CHALLENGE you to play as a T for a month.

An unpredictable T with a knife is better than a predictable CT with a gun. It only takes 1 to die to spell failure for the team. The fact that they spawn with guns means nothing when they do not take full advantage of the guns they are given. Ts also have vents, T guns, and credit awards to help even the odds.

 

[gimpy17]

An unpredictable T with a knife is better than a predictable CT with a gun. It only takes 1 to die to spell failure for the team. The fact that they spawn with guns means nothing when they do not take full advantage of the guns they are given. Ts also have vents, T guns, and credit awards to help even the odds.

And remember the ct to t ratio...there are always more ts than cts. Even with the guns, the ts outnumber the cts at least 2:1, and 2 ts, even with knives, can take out a ct easily if they coordinate...

 

[c-whit?]

While there may be a correlation between the 2, there is no distinct evidence that no longer having no detours/delays as implied caused server ranks to increase. Credits were added and many other rules were changed as well. Jails rank when the new rules were added, was rank #748, equivalent to what it is now. During the last 4 months, The server was never in quadruple digits, with the last recorded time it was past 1000 being October 2012. On the day the rules were changed, I updated the server rankings thread after not doing so for 2 months. The thread is there, and jail was never in the 2,000s.

Not true. Leadership keeps accurate server rankings.

This was before many of the changes.

03.31.2013: CS:S Jail Server | Rank: #1349

Afterwards:

04.7.2013: CS:S Jail Server | Rank: #696


------
Nevertheless, that's not the point. As stated above, this is in discussion in CS Leadership. We'll let you all know once we have some time to discuss it amongst ourselves.

Thanks for the patience.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

We'll let you all know once we have some time to discuss it amongst ourselves.

How goes the discussion

 

[DontBanTheMan]

I understand that leadership has already begun deliberating among themselves, and the discussion thus far has already grinded to a halt, but some of the things I've seen in this thread have compelled me to take time out of my not-so-busy day and input my thoughts. Off to it, than!

The point of JAIL is not for it to be easy. It's supposed to be a mixture between good CT's, good Orders, and rebelling T's.

Now, this, as an experienced jail player, makes me a little angry. For anyone who has ever played CT, do you find your job enforcing the warden's crazy orders easy? Now, personally, I do NOT find it easy. One may think that having automatic weapons, elevation, and sometimes body armor make it easy, but anyone who's spent a few months on jail realizes how difficult the job is. These are the reasons why.

- Bad CTs: Yes, this one may seem a bit mean, but the truth of the matter is that CTs do NOT use every tool in their arsenal, and actually do enjoy having fun -- fun, strange concept! Why, this very day I've seen a CT run into a stack of Ts without weapons because he felt like it. I've seen CTs right BELOW catwalks, perfectly good catwalks! I've even seen CTs attempt to KNIFE their opponents. The problem about all of these is it leads to CTs dying, decreasing the already small amount of CTs, and the problem about some of them is that it leads to the Ts getting guns. Terroriosts with guns are dangerous. Go figure.

- Bad Warden: CTs, no matter how "good" at counter-strike they are, cannot simply mow down all their enemies. This is not a deathmatch, and I cannot FATHOM why you consistently compare the terrorists to bots. There are RULES here, and the warden has to follow them; the problem is, bad orders lead to difficult or impossible matches, and the warden is picked randomly; occasionally a bad warden -- yes, a bad warden -- will take charge, and it makes the game incredibly difficult.

- Any combination of varying factor. The problem is that a warden is one person, and the game can get pretty chaotic. Prisoners nearly always have atleast one sidearm among them, many times they are ordered to stack up, and when combined with bad, decent, or even good CTs, can lead to a death and perhaps a full-scale rebellion. The Ts are constantly moving, there are STs, you have to watch yourself so you don't freekill, etc. The game is difficult.

Now, I understand your already-forming responses: "But, the game SHOULD be difficult! The CTs have so many advantages!". The problem is that it's just not that easy. Ts have lots of chances to rebel, there is no reason to give them more chances. The truth of the matter is people join the game to HAVE FUN. Fun is what I will refer to as "bad guards" and "bad wardens". People make mistakes, and losing round after round because it's incredibly difficult to maintain the mobs makes it extremely frustrating to continue trying. It has to be kept in mind that this game is about fun and difficulty, but it seems to be a bit too difficult for the guards.

Think I'm done? Not even close.

By implying "No cheating", you simply do 2 things: 1) Make Lazy CT's because you simply took away all the freedoms given to the T's and 2) Take away a major part of the server in which T's have to find loopholes in orders to win, to become last T, or to kill CTs.

I vehemently disagree with the statement and any assertion that implying no cheating makes lazy CTs. This is INCREDIBLY false. The CTs have so much on their plate besides this, implying it does NOT make it easier for the CTs, all it does is allow Ts to cheat their way around their fellow CTs when there is a warden inexperienced enough to forget to put "no cheating" into their orders. Jailbreak is about fun and it is about games, and what is fun about losing to people who just run straight to the winner boxes? It's really NOT fun. It takes the fun out of games.

Now, before you start telling me that I need to try T more, I'll just stop you right there.

I Challenge you to play as T for one month, then we can discuss these more realistically.

Do not, I repeat, do NOT, tell people such as RDK, or most Os for that matter, that they need to play T more. I have played this game for over a year now, and I do not need to be told that I need to play T for a month. I believe I have a sound enough grasp on the game that we can discuss these points just fine. Now that we have that out of the way, I can conclude this winding reply.





The point of jailbreak is to have fun, and I ask you: Is it really fun to repeat the same thing after every order? "No detours, no delays". Every experienced warden has memorized that by now. I do not believe I've forgotten to say that order in the past month. The problem is doesn't allow freedom to have wardens have to say that, the problem is that 1. It makes the game more repetitive in an already repetitive game, and 2. Inexperienced wardens usually leave this out, and shoot anyone who does detour or delay. I don't have to embellish this, the point is essentially made in what I've said already.

You must be on a different server than I am. When the rule was present, the only thing T's could do was follow the orders exactly. In fact, even when they did follow the orders, massive freekilling took place as CT's believed they took an extra step or took an extra breath that they didn't like.

No way.
Do you remember the old server? This was NOT what happened. When the rule was present, the Ts followed the orders, or they rebelled. If they followed the order, nothing happened, because CTs didn't mass freekill at an extra step or an extra breath. They usually killed Ts because they took a FEW extra steps in the direction of the CTs or were detouring their way to armory. Freekill has always happened on the server, and the new rules, I would argue, ADD to it, as seen above, not the other way around.

Now, I'm not saying the old server was perfect, but it was pretty darn enjoyable. This new one gives Ts a slough of new advantages. It doesn't give them more freedom; it just makes it much more stressful and annoying to be a CT. Have you seen the score of games recently? 13 - 1, I'd argue, is not at all balanced.

Please take what I've said into consideration, and if you have anything you wish to argue about, by all means. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and although I've grilled the new rules, keep up the good work c-whit.

P.S.: Bomb planting!

 

[Rogue Sniper]

@DontBanTheMan,

This post pretty much sums up Jail.

 

[c-whit?]

How goes the discussion

Sorry for the late response RDK. As you know, I like to make sure that we, as a leadership team, come with the proper responses to your inquiries. And to be fair, this was a big one. So we thank you for your patience.

After a long discussion, pages worth actually, the leadership team currently is in agreement that the rules will not be changed.

"No Cheating" is not implied.
"No detours" is not implied.

Although this may change in the future, this is our stance currently. At the current time, we do like the freedom that these exceptions creates. Moreover, we disagree with the fact that this hinders gameplay any. We understand that there may be bad Wardens, or bad CTs, or bad orders, but to be fair, this may occur whether these rules are in place or not. That is an independent factor and will not be considered when it comes to rule implementation.

Our main goal here, as yours is, is to have an enjoyable server for everyone. Although that is an ideal, it is illogical. We cannot please everyone. We understand that, however, we are trying to create an atmosphere that appeases the masses. If there's an aspect you don't like, we're trying to minimize the effects of it so that it's at least tolerable.

With that said, in the future, we are willing to discuss the rule again. We will be as fluid as possible and try to conform to the needs of the server at that time.

Thank you everyone.

I'm going to lock this thread as the question in hand is answered, however, if anyone has any issues/concerns, feel free to PM me.

Thanks!