Discussions on role of snipers

[Cass]

There was a roving discussion on the potential for changes due to abuse of snipers. While it would never occur to me to even use a sniper in RP 99% of the time I thought the players who had invested in the rifles had some beef with the idea that they would become useless/invaluable due to changes. One of the proposals I think was having them do 1 damage. I thought during this discussion (as well as the subsequent discussion on the 80mph speed limit) the admins were left having to provide the meat of the argument about why things were the way they were. I feel it should be the community providing justification for why something should be allowed or kept in play (the status quo).

Side note on "real life". Having parallels between the real world and Los Santos is what makes the game so immersive. Sure Los Santos has a wild west and over the top flair to it.. but thats the city we love right? That doesn't mean we want physics messed with... some of the more experienced folks seemed to shy away from making "real life" comparisons.. I say do it. Sometimes a little reality is what enables RP. It's ok to make these comparisons.

Here is my argument as a citizen who doesn't own a rifle and probably won't be sniping any time soon. I would rather the government increase the penalty for misuse of weapons (as might happen in real life) rather than manipulate the weapons effects grossly. Skill should be a factor in dangerous situations and taking cover should be an appropriate response. Ambushes happen, overwatch should be a thing when you have friends in high places... its ok. Its high drama when someone pulls a gun and you can say "take the shot". A rare RP for sure...

Abuse is possible but can't that be controlled by admins / rules enforcement. I'm not an admin, I'm a noob, so I'm just trying to continue the discussion. I felt like the admins felt forced to act out of frustration and the players with snipers didn't have very much to counter offer other than "I spent so much money".

Cass

 

[kuantum]

If I spent 500k or close to that amount on a sniper rifle, just to find that it does 1 damage, I'd request a full refund.

It's not realistic, I understand the abuse of the sniper rifle, but Air 1 has thermals, don't they? I feel like the balance is just a half-hearted attempt to fix the problem.

 

[Inkery]

This is the first step in the removal of the weapons, Reimbursements may be something that is done IC at some point still looking into the best way to do so. Due to the lack of RP surrounding this weapon and its extended bad history it is going to be removed. Not sure the connection between air one thermal and a sniper rifle but that seems like a separate topic.

 

[kuantum]

This is the first step in the removal of the weapons, Reimbursements may be something that is done IC at some point still looking into the best way to do so. Due to the lack of RP surrounding this weapon and its extended bad history it is going to be removed. Not sure the connection between air one thermal and a sniper rifle but that seems like a separate topic.

Punish the player, don't punish the gun.

If the police are notified there is snipers in the area, then why wouldn't they use the thermal on Air 1 to find the snipers?

I legitimately cannot imagine removing an item that's readily available in real life just because of bad RP surrounding the item. C4's and explosives? Sure, I wouldn't argue that. Miniguns? Of course. But a sniper rifle? That seems a bit far.

 

[Cass]

If I spent 500k or close to that amount on a sniper rifle, just to find that it does 1 damage, I'd request a full refund.

It's not realistic, I understand the abuse of the sniper rifle, but Air 1 has thermals, don't they? I feel like the balance is just a half-hearted attempt to fix the problem.

What is your counter proposal for balancing it or making abuse not worth it?

 

[Cass]

Punish the player, don't punish the gun.

If the police are notified there is snipers in the area, then why wouldn't they use the thermal on Air 1 to find the snipers?

I legitimately cannot imagine removing an item that's readily available in real life just because of bad RP surrounding the item. C4's and explosives? Sure, I wouldn't argue that. Miniguns? Of course. But a sniper rifle? That seems a bit far.

i'm not sure air 1 is always up even with the taxes we pay lol. That said.. maybe limiting the total number of snipers and having the ability to subpoena ballistics (in RP) to discourage misuse / accountability. What do you think the punishment should be (besides forfeiture of weapon?

 

[Typical]

This is the first step in the removal of the weapons, Reimbursements may be something that is done IC at some point still looking into the best way to do so. Due to the lack of RP surrounding this weapon and its extended bad history it is going to be removed. Not sure the connection between air one thermal and a sniper rifle but that seems like a separate topic.

The PD could host a Firearm Buy Back Day if you are looking for an IC idea.

 

[kuantum]

What is your counter proposal for balancing it or making abuse not worth it?

for one, it's extremely high price for one rifle anyway.

two, having the rifle on you makes you a target by police because one search and it's gone.

three, police should develop strategies around sniper involvement, such as being behind cover, wearing very protective armor, having a search team around looking for the sniper, etc.

solution by removal entirely always limits RP.

 

[Cass]

for one, it's extremely high price for one rifle anyway.

two, having the rifle on you makes you a target by police because one search and it's gone.

three, police should develop strategies around sniper involvement, such as being behind cover, wearing very protective armor, having a search team around looking for the sniper, etc.

solution by removal entirely always limits RP.

1. The price is high but people are buying helicopters and lambos.. so not that high relatively speaking.
2. Thats true of all contraband, if you intend to pack that much heat doesn't mean the cops have a reason to search you.
3. You are talking tactics which the officers at the meeting discussed as valid RP. What is the counter to abuse?

 

[iLLusion99]

This is my first time hearing about this tbh. I don't know how I feel about them being removed. Yes there was a time where there weren't snipers in the city and it was fine, but I feel like its better now with snipers.

Yes there are people who abuse the sniper but that goes for anything. IMO I would leave the sniper, maybe remove it from the shop and have an active player sell them to limit the amount in use, but not a removal all together. i believe that the good outweighs the bad

 

[Meyers]

but Air 1 has thermals, don't they?

wait till you find out what air2 has

 

[Meyers]

The PD could host a Firearm Buy Back Day if you are looking for an IC idea.

with whose money

 

[kuantum]

What is the counter to abuse?

What is the counter to players who abuse the drug dealers by reselling the given drugs back to the same dealer?

What's the counter to cops getting out of a lot of shit because of their police car tanks?

What's the counter to players who hide dirty money at safehouses and buy the same gear again?

Your question to counter is a flawed question. Any abuse of a RP situation or an RP item is a flaw of the RP itself and should be solved through RP. Blanket removal of an item because the cops are pouting is not a solution for anyone.

 

[Typical]

with whose money

You'd turn it back into the government silly. I forgot the PD is broke :/

 

[Ped]

The rule we had/have on snipers is that the party being sniped must be aware of the sniper before the sniper shoots at its target. With this it means that the target is instantly going to move, instantly going to move for cover, instantly going to try and find the sniper to eliminate the threat. This makes sniper RP hard.

But, sniper RP SHOULD be hard as its a one shot one kill weapon, in a sense you have instantly taken that person out of the RP as they are now dead on the floor waiting for medics, or their friends to come and get them. (I get this is still RP but what do you enjoy more? being dead on the floor or in a shootout? Or helping someone up as a cop?)

I have only used a sniper once and it was to snipe a cop outside of a bank robbery (@DocRage i'm sorry lmao) during the scene the robbers in the bank had told me that the cops where made aware that there was a sniper, so I took the shot. Later after the scene I was told that the cop was not informed of a sniper at all.

In my time on the server (spending at least 8 months on crim and 8 separate months on cop) I have hardly ever seen a sniper benefit RP, the only time I have seen it benefit me is in my time as a cop, when I have seen others use a sniper to eliminate a target, but that brings another argument up about cops having easy access to weapons like snipers whereas criminals do not. (although the cops do have to be trained to use the sniper).

In conclusion I honestly don't know where I stand on the whole sniper RP thing. It could work but I've never seen it work and have both parties be happy after the scene. (I'm sure there is at least 1 scenario where this has happened).

Due to the lack of RP surrounding this weapon and its extended bad history it is going to be removed.

Coulda told me this before I made a marksman training for the PD /e shrug
(this is a joke dont ban me)

 

[Alex]

What is the counter to players who abuse the drug dealers by reselling the given drugs back to the same dealer?

What's the counter to cops getting out of a lot of shit because of their police car tanks?

What's the counter to players who hide dirty money at safehouses and buy the same gear again?

Your question to counter is a flawed question. Any abuse of a RP situation or an RP item is a flaw of the RP itself and should be solved through RP. Blanket removal of an item because the cops are pouting is not a solution for anyone.

"Your question to counter is a flawed question. Any abuse of a RP situation or an RP item is a flaw of the RP itself and should be solved through RP. Blanket removal of an item because the cops are pouting is not a solution for anyone."

The cops didn't really have much to do with the decision. Your point of "solving it in RP" is an example of escalation. Crims have snipers, so the cops use AIR-1. Sounds great until you consider the NEXT STEP of what happens. Crims either:

A: Shoot at AIR-1, causing absolute chaos and probably pissing the cops off IC enough to now open fire on everyone involved.
B: Run with the sniper trying to understandably avoid losing $500,000. This usually results in a shootout anyway, just more toxicity coming from the losing side.

I want you to imagine the headache of trying to counter snipers perfectly, with no OOC toxicity coming from the crims, or the cops as a result. Then, I want you to try and imagine the headache of dealing with every situation where people break character immediately after out of anger.

More back to the point of the thread though;

I'm indifferent to snipers being removed. Honestly, I was pro-sniper, but I understand why they were removed. In my opinion, snipers were... slightly favored towards police. (i'll explain my logic in a second here.) And if I was making all the decisions with no restrictions, i'd keep it that way. Here are my reasons:

1. The police have SEVERE restrictions. As someone heavily involved with SWAT, i've used a sniper... probably 5 times over my 2 year career. For the crims, using a one-shot .50 cal anywhere for anything they want with no way to be tracked, followed, or stopped gave them almost absolute freedom, while the cops were limited, and only able to use their sniper for a specific way on a specific scene.
2. The result of messing up with a sniper will have catastrophic results for the Officer, and the scene. (crims shoot the hostage and take it out on the PD, crims begin a firefight, etc.)
3. Police are severely limited in tracking people in game. (It's impossible to catch people with snipers unless we get a direct line of sight and have cause to search or arrest them.

TD:LR i'm indifferent. I think it'll be interesting to see how RP evolves without snipers in play.

 

[b t]

I rarely play criminal so hear me out but also correct me if I am naïve.

Besides the economy which Inkery made clear saying

Reimbursements may be something that is done IC at some point still looking into the best way to do so.

in the words of @Architect of Life who cares?

After discussion in the bi-weekly meeting, this is not just GTA Online. We have the opportunity and the privilege to make Roleplay. The cops may know OOC that the snipers do nothing now, but IC they should still treat it as a large threat. If they do not, there are ways to report that type of behavior.

Additionally, there are many guns in the game, snipers included, that you can still make roleplay with. Removing sniper damage on both cop and crim seems balanced to me.

 

[Cass]

with whose money

This is the seed I will water later when I propose introducing taxes and the accountant whitelisted job

 

[Typical]

The cops may know OOC that the snipers do nothing now, but IC they should still treat it as a large threat. If they do not, there are ways to report that type of behavior.

Honestly I didn't think about it this way. You make a good point BT.

 

[Cass]

I rarely play criminal so hear me out but also correct me if I am naïve.

Besides the economy which Inkery made clear saying

in the words of @Architect of Life who cares?

After discussion in the bi-weekly meeting, this is not just GTA Online. We have the opportunity and the privilege to make Roleplay. The cops may know OOC that the snipers do nothing now, but IC they should still treat it as a large threat. If they do not, there are ways to report that type of behavior.

Additionally, there are many guns in the game, snipers included, that you can still make roleplay with. Removing sniper damage on both cop and crim seems balanced to me.

It is my opinion that reducing the damage was the least preferred solution. This isn't CS:GO so if you want to play shoot em up you are already in the wrong place... that much we agree on. I think that more effective RP would be only having a couple of people who could actually aquire and use a sniper. EVEN better RP would be that on the crim side the owner of the sniper might not even be skilled in it's use. Unless you are <100M most people can't use a rifle of that type. Hitting a shot > 300M requires very specialized training and still benefits from a windless environment. It's not point and click. Most of the characters I have met in the city don't have these skills. I agree the focus needs to be on the RP.