Minecraft Delivered [Rules change] Claim inactivity & "grief"

[4g0tt3nSou1]

Right now there is some weirdness of what exactly the rules are regarding unclaimed builds and what constitutes griefing.

Right now my understanding is that claims auto-disappear after 30 days of inactivity.
There also, are protections under griefing for unclaimed builds, as if they were claimed builds.

Some of the rules are unclear on how griefing is defined in Minecraft, I understand that's being worked on to my knowledge to clarify, but I figure I might have a solution worth hearing out.

What I propose is that claims (existing builds) that are inactive for 90 days, the claim disappears. These builds are then public domain and they are no longer "protected" under griefing, anyone can take stuff, etc. Exceptions(an extension past 90 days) can be made on a case-by-case basis on request by say, a discord ticket, approved by Minecraft Leadership.

For new builds that are unclaimed, players have 30 days to claim the build area to receive full protection under the rules and so on, to give them time to claim the area of the build. During those 30 days, they are also protected under the rules but are on a burden to claim the area. If they do not claim the area after 30 days, the area is now public domain, anyone can do anything to it. This encourages players to claim their builds, and gives them time to earn/buy the appropriate amount of claim blocks to do so.

To give players the ability to check a build to see if a player has exceeded the 30-day limit, we could create a public-facing command that interfaces but is not /pr near, it checks for the oldest change to the area made by a player, and checks if it's been past that threshold, and simply reports back to the player that the unclaimed are protected against grief under the rules. "This area is protected under griefing rules" or something. /checkarea or something.

The idea being there are currently plenty of unclaimed builds, and those deserve the same protections because it'd suck if you were working on something cool in an unclaimed area and it gets destroyed before you claim it. On the inverse, there are plenty of bases people build, and then never come back to after like 6mo, the claim disappears, but they aren't actually considered unclaimed and public domain (to my understanding).

This is the kind of thing that'll be after the map gets wiped on the new update, and allow us to move forward with an understanding of what is and isn't OK to do in terms of unclaimed areas; where right now there is some conflicting information

 

[Daa]

I think getting into the weeds about “if x happens, then y can be allowed” would create more confusion than correction to the rule. Also seems like a headache to leadership for ban appeals/reports. To my knowledge, EGO likes straightforward rules that are easy to understand.

If the maps are like they use to be, they are downloaded and open to be played in an offline single player world after the reset. I believe FirezFury use to be in charge of this task. My concern with allowing any type of public domain is that this would create issues if we still do this. Imagine downloading an old map to see your old builds only to be found that someone destroyed/replaced something that you worked on.

Additionally, it is not like there are a lack of resources. This is the sole purpose of mineworld. If mineworld did not exist, I could see the need for some type of looting/cutoff for claims.

I believe defining the rules for griefing is simple: if you did not build it and do not have the builders permission to use it/break it/etc, then that’s griefing. Basically if it’s not yours then you shouldn’t touch it without permission.

Can we allow claims to never expire? If EGO is looking to extend maps to last several months, then I think we should also be giving our members the benefit of the doubt by allowing them to come back when they seem fit to continue playing where they left off. Without structured reset times (reoccurring, defined resets) I don’t see why we should only give people a month before a claim is expired. If I left for 3 month and came back, that realistically isn’t that long of a time to miss if a map lasts 6-9 months.

TLDR: griefing should be defined as: don’t touch if you don’t have permission to. AND permanent claims???

 

[4g0tt3nSou1]

Thats something I definitely wanted to address was players who take extended hiatuses. That's why I was more along having it be on a 90day basis. Right now my understanding is after 30 days the claim goes away. I feel like 90 days of inactivity and options to extend that are pretty fair.

There are also a ton of things that are on server that just are not claImed; which kind of makes me feel like whats the point in the system if the players aren't actually securing their builds with it? Maybe something that automatically claims the chunk if you build/place more than X Items if you have the claIm blocks for it? Or for those who make builds like that having a toggle where it automatically creates a claim as you build so ur builds are protected?

A lot of it cones down to I can see new players going "Cool! Look at this farm... I could use some resources... It's not claimed though... Who's base is this?".

An example is right now 3 chunks away from my base is this massIve farm and giant sheep... Nobody has it claimed and the players that built it to my knowledge aren't/havent been around in months. Maybe I want to build a friend for the giant sheep, but if that's someone base, and I do so, I just briefed their claim. The other thing is there is stuff built where there are no actual logs any more of who built it, so how is even a leader/admin supposed to know who owns the builld?

From an outsiders perspective too, this isn't a private server. It's one thing if it were, but it's not. I can say confidently for at least my builds, Yeah, if I don't come back to it after 3 months, and I didnt say anything to anyone like I'm taking a break, I would lose 0 sleep over my stuff being reclaimed by the public

 

[MS]

I couldn't find anything well-defined in the MC server rules. My assumption is whatever the plugin says goes: if you can build somewhere then you're allowed to build there.

The technology exists to have forced spacing between plots, I don't see why we would have unwritten, unenforced (automatically), unclear rules about expiration and the like.

 

[4g0tt3nSou1]

I couldn't find anything well-defined in the MC server rules. My assumption is whatever the plugin says goes: if you can build somewhere then you're allowed to build there.

The technology exists to have forced spacing between plots, I don't see why we would have unwritten, unenforced (automatically), unclear rules about expiration and the like.

I've heard in the background that there has been some uncertainty on the rules on this. One thing says something, something else somewhere conflicts with it... Hence the suggestion.

 

[GrumpyCatJen]

The plugin itself specifically says 90 days. I am working on a file for Minecraft Leadership to know what plugins we have, what they do, what the commands are, along with what specific settings we have (this topic being an example). Here is a screen shot to prove it:

I am not sure if we would be able to configure that claims automatically make themselves.. even asking our tech team to code something like that sounds crazy. What we might be able to do is prevent players from placing blocks in the overworld unless/until they make a claim. I'm not sure how people would like that, especially if they get trapped...

I hope this helps.

 

[GrumpyCatJen]

Okay, confirmed that we can have overworld set up to require having a claim before building. This is the only warning from the developer, and we already have a /kit claimtool command to give players a golden shovel.

Warning about SurvivalRequiringClaims: This is designed for survival servers which have a designated resource-gathering world. Because claiming land without building first requires a golden shovel, you may want to either set an easier-to-get claim creation tool (see config), or add other plugins to make the golden shovel more accessible to your players. Also remember that you can modify messages.yml to customize GriefPrevention's help messages so that they're more helpful to the players on your not-so-standard server. Finally, remember that a player could potentially claim land, build/break stuff, then move his land claim. You can discourage this using GriefPrevention's config file option to have players lose some or all claim blocks used in a land claim when abandoning the claim. Please do what you can to make this mode work for you - because very few server owners use it, I don't want to overcomplicate it.

 

[Honorstar]

The plugin itself specifically says 90 days. I am working on a file for Minecraft Leadership to know what plugins we have, what they do, what the commands are, along with what specific settings we have (this topic being an example). Here is a screen shot to prove it:

View attachment 19324

I am not sure if we would be able to configure that claims automatically make themselves.. even asking our tech team to code something like that sounds crazy. What we might be able to do is prevent players from placing blocks in the overworld unless/until they make a claim. I'm not sure how people would like that, especially if they get trapped...

I hope this helps.

I really hate when you can't place anything outside claims. Imagine searching for a new base:
Mountain got 2 high jumps? You can't climb over the mountain.
You need a boat? better claim an area to place a crafting table to make a boat.
Fall into a cavern? oops /spawn time.
Want to expand your base while you wait to afford more claim blocks? Sorry.
Riding a horse and stuck in a tree? Better leave the horse behind.

 

[Honorstar]

Can we potentially extend the time prism logs are kept so we can have a /isitclaimed command? Right now there are builds that are entirely without logs. ie: No claims, no prism, nothing.

I have been specifically told that it something is unclaimed it isn't considered grief to touch a build, but the admin guide states that touching anything you don't build is grief.

These 2 things combined mean admins have no way of telling if a player is griefing or just working on their old build.

From an outsiders perspective too, this isn't a private server. It's one thing if it were, but it's not. I can say confidently for at least my builds, Yeah, if I don't come back to it after 3 months, and I didnt say anything to anyone like I'm taking a break, I would lose 0 sleep over my stuff being reclaimed by the public

The majority of public servers I have visited and checked rules on have statements similar to this idea. If you disappear without any communication for 30+ days your builds are not saved. Exceptions include servers that run the towny plugin where 1 player claims and everyone contributes to a town bank renewing the claim, or servers that are whitelist only.

I have personally found builds on a public server that are abandoned, claimed them and brought them back to life. Either we are a public server that encourages new players, or we are a private server that is a memorial to all past membership.

Can we allow claims to never expire? If EGO is looking to extend maps to last several months, then I think we should also be giving our members the benefit of the doubt by allowing them to come back when they seem fit to continue playing where they left off. Without structured reset times (reoccurring, defined resets) I don’t see why we should only give people a month before a claim is expired. If I left for 3 month and came back, that realistically isn’t that long of a time to miss if a map lasts 6-9 months.

Three months is an eternity online. Three months on a six month map? That's half the map's life. The server is radically different now than it was one month ago, let alone three months. We consider members and admins inactive after not viewing the forums for one week. One month is not extreme to consider a player as inactive in Minecraft.

This comes back to a single concept though. Are we hosting a public server that we want a constant flow of players into or are we hosting a private server for eGO members?

 

[Daa]

I really hate when you can't place anything outside claims. Imagine searching for a new base:
Mountain got 2 high jumps? You can't climb over the mountain.
You need a boat? better claim an area to place a crafting table to make a boat.
Fall into a cavern? oops /spawn time.
Want to expand your base while you wait to afford more claim blocks? Sorry.
Riding a horse and stuck in a tree? Better leave the horse behind.

I completely agree with Honorstar here.

 

[Daa]

Three months is an eternity online. Three months on a six month map? That's half the map's life. The server is radically different now than it was one month ago, let alone three months. We consider members and admins inactive after not viewing the forums for one week. One month is not extreme to consider a player as inactive in Minecraft.

This comes back to a single concept though. Are we hosting a public server that we want a constant flow of players into or are we hosting a private server for eGO members?

I understand what you’re saying here. Three months is a long time for online inactivity. I know I’m hypocritical because I haven’t logged into the MC server in months myself.

Have we explored more frequent resets? If three months is an eternity for online gaming, why aren’t we resetting maps within a couple months of each other? I know I am always more inclined to join the server whenever I see a reset because everything is fresh. Whenever we are dragging maps out for half a year to a year, I believe we are also caving to a private server for EGO members. Imagine joining a server for the first time and see everyone have everything built up, a bunch of money, and seemingly unlimited resources. At some point, it seems unrealistic to even attempt to play because you can never compete with those people. I guess maybe a question is: what is the face of the EGO MC server suppose to be? What brand are we going for with the server?

Edit: to expand on the last sentence. I guess I’m asking are we trying to be a competitive server with an emphasis on player economy and grinding to be at the top of McMMO etc? Are we trying to be a build-centered server where we grind for materials to build projects? Are we trying to be a mix of all of the above? Because if we are a build-centered server, than maybe resets aren’t necessary as often, but then to me I feel like we should be preserving what is in the server (like I mentioned earlier). But if we’re saying we’re trying to be a competitive server, maybe resets should happen more often to reset the playing field (and then maybe an inactivity rule that is clearly defined is okay to keep the server moving in that competitive direction). From the outside and what I’ve experienced in the server, we are trying to cater to both builders and competitive players, but it seems difficult to keep both player bases interested and engaged. If you’re a builder you probably see resets as something that needs to happen less frequently, but as a competitive player you’d want a reset more frequently.

 

[Elbow Removal Service]

I really hate when you can't place anything outside claims. Imagine searching for a new base:
Mountain got 2 high jumps? You can't climb over the mountain.
You need a boat? better claim an area to place a crafting table to make a boat.
Fall into a cavern? oops /spawn time.
Want to expand your base while you wait to afford more claim blocks? Sorry.
Riding a horse and stuck in a tree? Better leave the horse behind.

I don't play MC much anymore, but what she has written here appears to be one of the most correct paragraphs ever written by a human.

 

[MS]

Why not allow players to build anywhere unclaimed, and inform them that they can claim their builds if they want to protect them.

We're putting a lot of time discussing something that honestly shouldn't be that much of an issue. Minecraft is practically infinite, there is a resource world, it's not like real-estate is super rare or limited. If anything I wish more people would build closer together to get a better sense of community. I don't like having this whole "this is my land, don't build anywhere near it" schtick.

One of my favorite SMPs there wasn't any land claiming. Players just got along. I understand we can't exactly go this way due to the "size" of eGO, but it's not like we're making the goddamn mona lisa when it comes to builds (some of the builds atm are actually really cool).

If someone goes inactive for who cares how many days, what's the point of unclaiming them? If you find a cool spot but someone claimed it just pick a new spot. Again, practically infinite terrain yall.

 

[4g0tt3nSou1]

Why not allow players to build anywhere unclaimed, and inform them that they can claim their builds if they want to protect them.

We're putting a lot of time discussing something that honestly shouldn't be that much of an issue. Minecraft is practically infinite, there is a resource world, it's not like real-estate is super rare or limited. If anything I wish more people would build closer together to get a better sense of community. I don't like having this whole "this is my land, don't build anywhere near it" schtick.

One of my favorite SMPs there wasn't any land claiming. Players just got along. I understand we can't exactly go this way due to the "size" of eGO, but it's not like we're making the goddamn mona lisa when it comes to builds (some of the builds atm are actually really cool).

If someone goes inactive for who cares how many days, what's the point of unclaiming them? If you find a cool spot but someone claimed it just pick a new spot. Again, practically infinite terrain yall.

While I understand the sentiment here, The problem is the overworld, and even the mineworlds, aren't actually infinite. Mineworlds reset frequently enough where it sorta is "pseudo-infinite", but there is a finite space in the overworld and such builds, especially some of the more massive ones, take up space.

Why not allow players to build anywhere unclaimed, and inform them that they can claim their builds if they want to protect them.

This is somewhat the status-quo, and we are running into questions of ambiguity in terms of what happens to unclaimed builds. Is it really griefing if the user specifically chose not to use the protections in place to protect against "griefing"? Is it "Griefing" if I stumble across a farm that is unclaimed and help myself to the resources? or if I see someone builds a giant sheep, unclaimed, and I decide to give the giant sheep a friend?

but it's not like we're making the goddamn mona lisa when it comes to builds (some of the builds atm are actually really cool).

Over the last few wipes, I've seen plenty of builds that are absolutely massive in size, and I mean seriously massive. Last wipe for example, Hope had built a giant pyramid in the end. Very cool. It was completely solid, It took something upwards of like 10mil blocks? And that wasn't the only massive build they've done, or others. And that's cool and fine! it's awesome to see the art!

However, It should be claimed. It saves a lot of confusion, especially for new players, on what they can and can't touch, if it's better defined, and right now; the definition is conflicting with other definitions of the same rule. How can we expect our users to be respectful of the rules, when the rules conflict and nobody can really say what the rule exactly is or how things like this are actually defined?

One of my favorite SMPs there wasn't any land claiming. Players just got along.

In my opinion, this works till it doesn't. We have ambitions of expanding past just our current playerbase is my understanding. New players is going to equal players that don't vibe with each other. This is fine! but we need to be prepared for it.

Is this post getting deep into the definitions? Absolutely. But at the same time, having a clear understanding beyond our discretion going forward is going to be more and more relevant as the server continues to grow.

I also think that we are getting a bit over the scope; as far as I know nobody has specifically mentioned a suggestion where players cannot build in unclaimed areas. That's not the suggestion. The suggestion is to clarify the rules, and define protections for unclaimed builds and suggest improvements to the claiming system.

 

[nonya]

Why not allow players to build anywhere unclaimed, and inform them that they can claim their builds if they want to protect them.

We're putting a lot of time discussing something that honestly shouldn't be that much of an issue. Minecraft is practically infinite, there is a resource world, it's not like real-estate is super rare or limited. If anything I wish more people would build closer together to get a better sense of community. I don't like having this whole "this is my land, don't build anywhere near it" schtick.

One of my favorite SMPs there wasn't any land claiming. Players just got along. I understand we can't exactly go this way due to the "size" of eGO, but it's not like we're making the goddamn mona lisa when it comes to builds (some of the builds atm are actually really cool).

If someone goes inactive for who cares how many days, what's the point of unclaiming them? If you find a cool spot but someone claimed it just pick a new spot. Again, practically infinite terrain yall.

+1 land claims are lame IMO!

 

[sopheyy]

if a building is claimed: outsiders cannot break
if a building is not claimed: outsiders can break (and loot and steal)
if a building is claimed but there are a few blocks that are unclaimed and this is used to exploit: this is griefing

isnt it that simple?
also, makes it easier for new people so they dont end up getting banned for harvesting some crops on an unclaimed base

 

[GrumpyCatJen]

4g0tt3nSou1 How does this sound:

1. I updated the config so claims do not expire for 999 days (essentially, no expiration)
2. I am not changing the: Respect players by building 3 chunks away, use PG-13 appropriate skins and do not grief (as already mentioned HERE)
3. And if we really need to define what it means to "grief" we can refer to the wikipedia definition:

A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately and intentionally irritates and harasses and annoys other players within the game (trolling), by using aspects of the game in unintended ways in order to destroy something another player made or built, or stealing something, such as items or loot, when that is not the primary objective.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily, or exclusively, from the act of annoying other users, and as such, is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities. If a bad-faith player is attempting to gain a strategic advantage, it could be considered cheating.
SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

Do we need to go further? Even if there is no intention of malicious intent, if you do not have that specific players' permission and you destroy their build or take their items, it is griefing.

Right now there is some weirdness of what exactly the rules are regarding unclaimed builds and what constitutes griefing.

If there are other EdgeGamer Minecraft rules posted somewhere that are causing this contradiction, please let me know. I have been working extremely hard to update all of our materials, from the forums to our Discord.

 

[4g0tt3nSou1]

4g0tt3nSou1 How does this sound:

1. I updated the config so claims do not expire for 999 days (essentially, no expiration)
2. I am not changing the: Respect players by building 3 chunks away, use PG-13 appropriate skins and do not grief (as already mentioned HERE)
3. And if we really need to define what it means to "grief" we can refer to the wikipedia definition:

A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately and intentionally irritates and harasses and annoys other players within the game (trolling), by using aspects of the game in unintended ways in order to destroy something another player made or built, or stealing something, such as items or loot, when that is not the primary objective.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily, or exclusively, from the act of annoying other users, and as such, is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities. If a bad-faith player is attempting to gain a strategic advantage, it could be considered cheating.
SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

Do we need to go further? Even if there is no intention of malicious intent, if you do not have that specific players' permission and you destroy their build or take their items, it is griefing.



If there are other EdgeGamer Minecraft rules posted somewhere that are causing this contradiction, please let me know. I have been working extremely hard to update all of our materials, from the forums to our Discord.

My only question is what happens to a new player, Who joins the server, stumbles on a base, but it's unclaimed, and nobody knows who's it was because they haven't been on in forever and never claimed it. does the new player get punished for helping themselves even though they had no idea or had any way of knowing because the space is unclaimed?

Overall, these are great changes! Thanks, Jen for the clarification!

 

[Honorstar]

I am not changing the: Respect players by building 3 chunks away, use PG-13 appropriate skins and do not grief (as already mentioned HERE)

I would love this changed. I would love it upped to 5 or even better 10 chunks. Our build world is big enough to allow this and suddenly having say a giant sheep appear on the edge of you area is a bit startling.

But, that is probably a different suggestion thread.

 

[Daa]

My only question is what happens to a new player, Who joins the server, stumbles on a base, but it's unclaimed, and nobody knows who's it was because they haven't been on in forever and never claimed it. does the new player get punished for helping themselves even though they had no idea or had any way of knowing because the space is unclaimed?

I feel like the only case where this might happen is if someone used a village as their base. Because anything else that is built would look unnatural for it to spawn naturally in the server.

I believe this goes back to the understand that when you play on our servers, you have also read and agree to our rules. The MC server also stresses reading the rules from I remember so it’s unlikely they do not know the rules unless their avoiding them on purpose.