Growing spy difficulty

[QB]

I have recently begun playing spy on a limited basis, and it's really been a blast despite the issues. I won't go into detail about the common complaints like facestabs, missed backstabs, people seeing through cloak from far away etc.

I wanted to bring up what I see as a growing issue. As we all know, spies cannot display class secondary weapons while disguised - nor can they display the new class upgrades. This may not seem like much of an issue now, with only one viable disguise class (pyro) having been upgraded, but I believe it will only get worse with time.

Lets break it down like this:

Which classes would often be seen showing their "secondary" or even "tertiary" weapons (in order of how common this would be)?

1. Medic
2. Spy
3. Engineer (because they have SO many options)
4. Sniper (if he's not setup in a sniping position)
5. Pyro

Below this line, the "primary" weapon as a disguise is more viable - for now.
------------
6. Demo
7. Soldier
8. Scout
9. Heavy

So already it would be common to see 5 of the 9 classes carrying a "secondary" weapon. Let's compound the issue now...

How many of you have the Blutsauger for your Medic? How many have the Backburner for your Pyro? I'd be willing to bet that far more than 50% have both. And of that group, I'd be willing to bet over half equip those weapons rather than the "old" weapons.

It is likely that only the engineer and possibly sniper will fail to have their "primary" weapons receive an achievement unlocked upgrade. It seems VERY likely that the other classes will receive upgraded weapons that will see at least 50% deployment.

Unless something is changed, the already thin disguise that spies have will become increasingly worthless. It will no longer require half a brain to detect spies - just a quarter of a brain will do.

Maybe everyone doesn't share my concern for this, but I am hoping that Valve will make some adjustments beyond just upgraded weapons for the Spy. I have a great respect for players who play the class well, and I think I've gained some insight into the difficulties in playing spy well. I consider it the most difficult class by far to play well. While I don't think that needs to change, I don't want the spy to disappear into obsolescence.

 

[midget31394]

What I think should happen is that when you disguise if you're holding you're revolver, it should be seen as disguise with primary weapon, if you've got your sapper ready it should be secondary weapon, and when you hold the knif it should be melee weapon.

 

[Black cat]

I think one of the more pressing issues are the absurd number of pyro's on the servers at the moment. Sure our time will come during the heavy achievements, but using a simple disguise no-longer seems to fool as many people as it used to.

 

[Iceman]

Pyro is still a good class to disquise as. Alot of people still like the original one, such as myself. Also, why would a pyro be carrying a secondary weapon? Also, sniper and engi aren't bad. Disquise yourself as an engineer only after they have set up. Disquising as a sniper is fine as long as you are coming from behind the group like you should be anyway. I also think that heavy is more viable then scout.

 

[Super88]

I agree with midget. Its hard for me to play as a spy when the opposite team is full of pyros that just hold down the attack button and run around. There aren't really a lot of ways you can get by that. Its also kinda annoying how the spy is very weak if you are attacking face-to-face. 90% of the time when I take out my revolver to attack face to face I'll die. The only way I can kill somone is if they are low on HP because there are so many other enemies attacking me. Pretty much what I'm trying to say is that the spy updates should come sooner rather then later beacuse as other classes begin to become upgraded its just gonna get harder to be a spy.

 

[NYC 3L1T3]

Here's my take:

Spy Problems

• Pyro update
• Heavy reliability on luck
• Flawed disguise system
• Buggy backstab system
• Spy checking
• Relies on player error a lot
• Short cloak with huge downtime

Pyro update- Having 5 Pyros running around the map spraying the air with the BB doesn't help Spies, at all. Nothing else needs to be said here. I don't think I need to say much here.

Reliability on luck- Yes, Spies take a lot of skill to play well. But the problem is they rely on too many outside influences that they CAN'T control. I've had way too many people telling me it's all skill, it's not. It's a lot of luck.

You can't control whether you turn a corner and someone happens to be there. And you can't check before hand. You won't know when a patrolling player(s) will leave your hiding spot where you're cloaked before it runs out. You can dodge a huge battlefield all you want, if that one guy over there decides, "Hey, I'm gonna suddenly stop what I'm doing and run over THERE for some reason," you can't control that.

When being checked by the less than average Joe who may pop a few shots in you and be on his way instead of killing you, you can't control whether his shots happen to be a crit and kill you instantly rather than spare you.

Flawed disguise system- Most of them are useless. Heavy is useless because it just expands your hitboxes, slows you down dramatically, and doesn't fool many at all. You won't be any more likely to get an enemy uber or anything because if I saw a "Heavy" running around spamming "MEDIC!" without spinning his gun at all, I'd kill him. Soldier is bad too, it's the same thing but a little smaller than Heavy, you're not spamming rockets this time, and you're very slightly faster than a Heavy.

Scout... the ONLY good thing about this disguise is it has the smallest hitboxes and figure and makes hiding easier without anything sticking out. That's a gimmick. A one-trick pony. You don't have 2x speed or double-jump (which would make it prime choice of disguise). Medic... it's decent... but the problem is you have your syringe gun out, you move slightly slower than a normal Medic, and you don't have the "UberCharge [(Kritzkreig)]: X%" when people scroll over you. That's no good.

Pyro is one of the better disguises. Even if the BB destroys it somewhat, some stick to AB and others don't notice subtle differences. The main problem is if a flame brushes you, that enemy Medic won't think twice about healing a flaming Pyro. Demoman is one of the other good disguises. More observant players notice many Demos like using sticky grenades as their primary weapon because it's noob-friendly and has been aptly named by Valve as "winbombs" in an article. Other than that very minor nit-pick, you move slightly slower than normal speed as a Demo but that's very subtle too.

Engineer is a fine disguise, many get weary though when they see an Engy in the battlefield or without his wrench/builder out. Sniper is fine too, but again with the "middle of the battlefield" thing. And aside from clas specific disguise problems, there's flaws with the feature itself: You can't make them convincing. You get RANDOM health generated from it between ~50-90% health (+/- a bit) and you always hold your primary weapon. Those are big give-aways.

And the problem with making is so: "Revolver = weapon 1, Sapper = 2, Knife = 3, Disguise Kit= 4" "fix" is that people will just adapt, even making it worse for the Spy. Like this: "Oh, that guy has his secondary out by that Engy's buildings! HE'S GONNA SAP IT *boom boom boom*" "My teammate is following me with his melee out, he may be a Spy with his knife out, I don't trust him, *boom boom boom*"

And making is to when you disguise it's a random weapon won't help much either. It then becomes another variable you can't control. And when you change things to make them so you CAN control them, you turn the Spy into a mini RPG with micromanagement overload because before you can disguise, you choose how much health/what weapon/whatever to complete it. And then all of that work only to get killed by spy checking or stray bullets. This makes disguises only useful so you don't get SG fire attracted towards you and effectively turns it into what some people have named jokingly, the 'Mysteriously Injured Pyro/Demoman Disguise Kit" on forums.

Buggy backstabs- I'm sure everyone is aware of the "step-backs," "facestabs," and other anomalies that result in backstabs registering when they shouldn't or vice-versa.

Spy checking- Since there's no FF, people shoot their teammates carefree only they're satisfied. And if there WAS FF, the game becomes a grief fest as people purposely kill each other or get killed by friendly explosive spam, flames, or crit "X." Outside of that, it doesn't take a genius to follow the normal spy checking circumstance guidelines or just ignore them and shoot everyone on your screen (or not because you may just reveal a cloaked spy).

Reliability on player error- The class thrives on someone not watching their back or acting certain other ways that allows a Spy to continue. This causes problems when people stop making mistakes. Anyone that has observed the dramatic decline of Spies from beta to present knows that players learn quickly and the class that seemed invincible at the start is becoming far too fragile.

Short cloak with huge downtime- You get 10 seconds of cloak, 8 of those are where you actually ARE cloaked. The first and last second are semi-cloak where you're partially visible but it still drains the meter. With that, you got ~20-30 second downtime which when you consider the fact that disguises are almost useless in many ways, you have a big downtime with little uptime on an ability that has so many downsides.

Others and I have proposed ideas such as "Refilling cloak from resupply cabinets (which SHOULD happen because this is the only class that leaves spawn unprepared)," "Regenerating cloak from dispensers (iffy, but it could only boost it a small amount to make it reasonable)," "Cloak diminishing slower and/or regenerating faster when standing still/crouched," and other little things to help mitigate the handicap.

One last thing: People keep confusing "Unlocks" with "Upgrades." They're different. Valve created unlocks as a means of providing alternative weapons to suit alternative playstyles/situations. Obviously many concepts have become imbalanced and abused and haven't worked out that way (blutsauger, ubersaw, backburner, and to a lesser extent, axetinguisher) but that doesn't change the fact that they're supposed to be alternatives. Not upgrades, which are direct buffs or improvements to weapons so that they perform in a vastly superior manner to their predecessors.

What that means is: "No, unlocks in theory will NOT solve the Spy's problems. Why? Because they're supposed to provide alternatives... not improvements. But that doesn't mean Valve can't mistakenly break that vow by creating something like say the knife equivalent of the ubersaw for cloak or something like that."

With that said, I love the Spy a lot. It's my most played class along with Scout. But the only thing that can help the Spy is to fix some bugs with him. Unlocks probably won't do much, assuming they aren't overpowered, they will probably be underpowered. And you can't fully fix a class with a design that makes them rely a lot on influence from the outside. But that doesn't mean we can't get free kills on the many Medics, Heavies, and Snipers that will come with the inevitable Heavy update.

Tl;dr: Spies have a lot of problems, and we're all concerned.

P.S. Sorry for the really long post. I probably would've put more into it but I got tired of thinking for now (lol) and just wanted to get some of my views out there.

 

[Booster37]

And you know what? NYC, Lock-On and I were talking a little about this Spy and Pyro in Heights yesterday, lol.

Yes, the Spy is growing difficult to play, but still can be done. I was playing Pyro yesterday, and actually enjoyed it for once, maybe because we didn't have many of them at one time. Racked up 20 points in one round and was Top MVP...with the ol' Flamethrower. Yes, my trusty weapon. I just find the Pyro's Backburner weapon to be too buggy of a weapon. I find that most people play it because like the Spy's knife, you have a heavy reliability on luck, but when you have a weapon what is automatic and always shooting ammo, the luck is multiplied x10. We always complained about backstabs to the face, and now we see backburns to the face. This isn't fun. The +50 Health is also a turn on to most.

Like NYC said, the weapons that come with the achievements are Unlocks, not Upgrades. However, because Valve made the Backburner = Flamethrower Pre-Update + 50 health + Instant Crit in the "back", this sounds like an upgrade.

 

[R.E.D]

Two words: Spies rule the earth!

ok four words..come to think of it my entire post has 20 words!

 

[Sharp67]

You really have to practice at spy to get the good knowing of how to use him. The soldier and such classes really don't need as much skill....Point and shoot.....However an experienced spy will look ahead of him and decide what he wants to do/take out first. That all in all takes some time...Just my 2cents

 

[Iceman]

Agreed entirely sharp.

 

[midget31394]

What that means is: "No, unlocks in theory will NOT solve the Spy's problems. Why? Because they're supposed to provide alternatives... not improvements. But that doesn't mean Valve can't mistakenly break that vow by creating something like say the knife equivalent of the ubersaw for cloak or something like that."

[/I]

Those were all good points but with this last one, you say they are supposed to provide alternatives, and that valve cant break that vow whereas they already have with the blutsauger and axtinguisher, ive killed a lone heavy with my blutsauger and the axtinguisher makes it too easy for pyro kills without wasting ammo.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

I think the biggest issue with the spy class is that there is no friendly fire in the game. As a result, people just happily shoot everyone and everything near them to spy check.

Spy has very steep learning curve as many mentioned. There is a huge gap between average spy and good spy. In my opinion, spy is a mind game class, and many people do not seem to understand this.

Just an observation of a newbie.

 

[QB]

Suggestion

So far the PRIMARY weapons have been upgrades. The blutsauger and BB are pretty much upgrades over their counterparts.

When would a pyro be seen carrying his secondary weapon? He would be using the shotty in the water if he's not trying to glitch with his flamethrower.

Right now, there is maybe a 30% chance that players will see through your disguise immediately, regardless of your behavior. As more new primary weapons show up, I believe that chance will approach 75% or better. I've had plenty of experience hunting down spies, as any 2fort regular spy like R.E.D can tell you. Based on that experience, I can tell you with certainty that disguises will be worthless in a few months - unless there are changes made.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

Just FYI, scout is not good disguise. People just can identify you as a spy because of the movement speed difference. This applies to a medic as well, but the speed difference is very subtle and most will miss it. However, not having uber charege meter under your name give away your identity.

 

[Black cat]

However, not having uber charege meter under your name give away your identity.

Precisly! The way I do it is use my cloak to get behind the enemy while remaining aware of what's going around me. I know where to crouch jump to go out windows and where Demomen will have traps set which i can fall back to. Knowing this I parachute drop in as above then using my disguise to buy a seconds distraction or SG cover I then stab my way out. It works pretty well!

 

[Singe125]

This is for the most part correct. But playing spy for awhile will of course make the enemy paranoid and expecting a spy around so they spy check. It's always a good idea to be fairly skilled with a few classes so when they become more paranoid you can just switch then go back to spying after a few minutes.

Ask Snuffleupagus or Butcher, they've seen me do it a few times before.

It varies on people's mind on whether they're worried about a spy behind them or a pyro.

 

[Butcher]

This is for the most part correct. But playing spy for awhile will of course make the enemy paranoid and expecting a spy around so they spy check. It's always a good idea to be fairly skilled with a few classes so when they become more paranoid you can just switch then go back to spying after a few minutes.

Ask Snuffleupagus or Butcher, they've seen me do it a few times before.

It varies on people's mind on whether they're worried about a spy behind them or a pyro.

I've also seen times when you just give up because there's pyros everywhere just spraying fire. But Valid points besides. I play spy every now and then even if its just to test the waters to speak if its possible. If everyone on the other team is virtually looking for spies I just switch to heavy and shoot my way through.

 

[Monkeybits]

Yeah, the disguise isn't your biggest problem. Things that trigger a spy check for me:

(1) There is another player in my vicinity. Dead ones only get one round...
(2) There is movement, real or imagined.

And yet, I still get backstabbed from time to time. So, it's a viable class, and I imagine upgrades will only make it better.

 

[Butcher]

yea I mean I flat out suck at spy. I'm good at defending bases. Attacking them even. Infiltrating not so much. Closest I get to that is when me and my medic buddy take a heavy to their spawn and open up on their snipers nothing so gratifying as open up that mini cannon and watching sniper after sniper die in a row.

 

[Dieinpeace]

I think the spy diguise system is fine how it is. If you play Spy well you really dont need a diguise anyways. The problems with spy being hard to play are

A. The cloak time.( needs to be longer and have a much shorter cooldown time.)
B. The Sapper( needs to be much harder to take off of buildings)

If you upgraded or modified those two things as a spy the diguise problems would fade away quickly. Althought if you play a well made map, the mapmaker usually builds thier map around the cloak timer. So as too keep the spy in check with all the other classes. that is my 2 cents on the spy.

P.S. i play spy quite a bit(i think i have about 60 hours worth of play time as spy)