team stacking observations and a challenge.

you know , instead of looking at teamstacking negetivly , think about it in a positive light , challange yourself , i can honestly say im as good as i am because i played the underdog when teamstacking occured on a diff server , now i can join a team and usually get them 2 win , so on that note , think of the stackers as challanging you to become a better player , and if you hang in there enough you might just be the "stack"
 
and fyi , all this was discussed in the last meeting , There isnt more we can do , other than just not stacking , keep in mine , autobalance is great for fixing stacks as well , people get owned , they leave and then auto balance comes into play , and guess what , you get one of their team , and so it will balance out .
 
Actually the problem is that black_hand is also attracted to certain players, he knows the good players as well as we all do. So sometimes it is not that we do not dare to face him, he just joins us :P

So I think that the logical conclusion is to ban black_hand:laugh:


I guess the point of my post is that there really isn't an automatic solution to team stacking. We can't change other people, but we can change ourselves, and we can be a beacon in the darkness of pub servers :)
 
One thing that I TERRIBLY dislike is the fact that an =(e)= will join a winning team instead of the losing. Though not a rule, I think this should be more emphasized because there's nothing "punk-free" about joining the winning team when you know you're going to create an imbalance for no good. And that's no good for your reputation.
 
One thing that I TERRIBLY dislike is the fact that an =(e)= will join a winning team instead of the losing.

Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of eG's and eGO's do this as well--generally because they want to be on a team with friends and whatnot. It's not necessarily wrong, it's just bad sportsmanship in my opinion.
 
Sorry to say but I don't fully believe this. You can't control which team you join. You are forced to join a team with less people because of the balance. Only time would be if both teams are even and someone join the winning team, although they can only see the score, not if that team is pushing ahead at that time.

I really say this is uncontrollable but the only thing you can do is hope people do the right thing. I myself always join the team with less players or do an auto select.
 
Ive been on the losing team several times, and at times join the other team to try and make things even...although it seldom happens, others do the same. This morning I joined the valve maps server and although we were losing, we had fun and I stayed as long as I could while alot of people on my team left...heres the link to the score board, as u can see server was not full and people were still joining.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt76/Frisky_Dingo2009/friskydingo.jpg
 
we can't just join a team 40% of the times I join a team, autobalance just flips me over to the other team.

And Shade yeah, lets ban black_hand then >_<
 
And Shade yeah, lets ban black_hand then >_<

Actually if we just banned the top ten players, the problem would be solved.
:thumbup1:

Just kidding of course. I think that having some of the best players on our servers is both a testament to the quality of the eGO community, and an incentive to keep people coming back to the servers.
 
yea its been said but, if its possible, lowering the %age of a scramble to pass so that the minority vote is the NO's not the YES's
 
sadly, I see team stacking all the time. imo, even though it wouldn't work, everyone should be forced to do an auto team join instead of selecting a side.

I auto join everytime. sure it fun to play with friends, but I'm friends with everyone or will make new friends and kill my other friends.
 
im in agreement with this...although im known for whineing sometimes myself i'll never leave a team because its loseing. since mostly whats been said encompasses all that needs to be done heres something that happened a few days ago for example:

(i can never really remember which team color im on so i'll just say im RED for now since usually my friends play BLU) i was playing spy as usual and i noticed we were haveing problems, huge ones. we were getting steamrolled and we had no defence OR offence so i started talking on the mic. i mostly was focusing on trying to push back they're medics/heavys so i did'nt SEE what was going on, what i did was keep saying things like "guys we need engineers on B" till i heard the words "building a sentry" go a few times, after THAT was established and we had a decent defence me and another player started telling the team to get our heavys/soldiers/medics (and pyros oh my) onto C so they could'nt cap K, after loseing our sentrys and almost K we finally got C and about 8 minutes later we were on K, we did'nt win, it ended in a stalemate, but after getting steamrolled 3 times i think that was a good comeback :D
 
Very nice post. As admins we should be joining losing teams and trying to promote the eGO community by showing our desire to give all people in our servers the best experience possible.

I've always wondered, though, if it'd be possible to run a plugin on the server that would auto-shuffle under certain conditions. When team X wins 10 or 15 or 20 games in a row, auto-shuffle, or something like that. If the plugin announced that shuffle would happen in X rounds, people on the losing side would be more likely to tough it out for a few more rounds and wait for the autoshuffle. On the other hand, they'd also probably put no effort into winning knowing they'd risk losing the autoshuffle. And the winning team, if they were say, on offense in dustbowl, might toss the match to keep their awesome team. So, maybe if it didn't announce it it'd be better...but you see what I'm getting at. I don't think it'd be THE SOLUTION we're looking for, there probably isn't one; I think it'd be neat, though.
 
There are certain players that really imbalance teams. "daddy" doesn't seem to play on PL server much any more, I think he defected to cp_egypt. But it used to be the case that he would join the server and win every round for 6 hours. He felt kind of bad about it and would switch teams once every couple of rounds, and it would always be a steamroll. He's just a very good leader with a clear authoritative voice and a strong understanding of the game.

It gets irritating, knowing that you're a better-than-average player but your performance is horrible because your team can't coalesce. And it's especially irritating to have to waste 80% of your game time BEING irritated about it... realize that these times are the best opportunity for you to have a memorable game. If your normal strategies aren't working, try something absolutely nuts with your team, just to shake things up. Try a ridiculously large number of one class. It's a way to get people to listen and coordinate and confuse the enemy. Once people are operating on the same wavelength and interested, you can move to normal strategies without the glazed eyes of constant defeat and boredom. Just a thought.
 
Losing is part of the game. Just try to have fun with your friends until one around your victory comes and that makes it so much better.
 
I enjoy switching to losing teams, because my Sentry Gun has more fun when people are running at it, not away from it.

But when I join a server, unless IVE JOINED SPECIFICALLY to play with somebody, I just pick the first open team slot, Blu or Red.

The problem of teamscramble can broken down to two concepts:

1) Teams have n00bs.
2) Teams have whiners who think God has blessed them with the inalienable right to play Class X.

When I see an unbalanced team, it can usually be tracked down to the team having three Engineers with no sentries and 4 spies, all who still haven't figured out the disguise kit.

The thing I've finally come to understand is These Class two people don't care if they win or lose as a team just that they get to play their favorite class.

The difference can be found in how they complain. If they're just complaining that they are losing, they're n00bs. If they're complaining that the team isn't sufficiently doing X and therefore they can't snipe/rocket jump/plant stickies, they're Class 2.
You can't do anything about n00bs... at one time, I was a n00b, you were a n00b, everyone goes through the painful realizations of TF2. Yes, people spycheck. Yes, you have to disguise. Yes, snipers one hit kill if you don't juke.

The problem boils down to those class 2 players. The ones who have no problems on "Good" teams because everyone else is doing all the work, but suddenly "Can't do their job" on "Bad" teams. These guys are the real problems, and short of kicking them there's really nothing you can do.

Well... how about votescramble? A quote from Benjamin Franklin, inventor of electricity* might be apropos:

Mr. Franklin said:
When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

A story: during the Turbine party this wednesday, my team had taken complete control of the turbines area, and the other team was crammed into their base. Immediatly three people started yelling "TEAMS!" and "BALANCE PLZ!"

The score was 1-1. And we couldn't break through their solid defense into their Intel EVEN WITH two level three teles going forward and 3 level three sentry guns watching our back.

They demaded a scramble. The game wasn't fair because they couldn't play the classes they wanted to without being killed.

Now imagine we had votescramble? How often would "scramble teams?" be initiated by whiners like that?

Now imagine we demanded a simple majority instead of a supermajority? The whiners all vote, and the n00bs, new to the game and assuming that they're losing because of imbalance (the voice chat says so!) also vote yes. And a few pansy peaceniks on the winning side thinks that the rolling isn't fun (rolling can happen in a balanced game if the other side isn't working as a team) vote yes to. Bam! Majority! And everyone loses.

Why does nobody care about all the winners, who have finally found that most sacred and precious thing: a TEAM THEY CAN ACTUALLY WORK WITH, who will now quit in disgust that their team was broken up BECUASE THEY WERE SUCCEEDING.

Successful scrambles lose JUST AS MANY WINNERS as failed or rejected scrambles lose LOSERS. And because winning teams, by definition, have less "deadweight" (Class 2 ers) than Losing teams, we're choosing to protect whiners at the cost of good pubbers.

The final outcome is that Class 2 Players learn that they can "vote themselves" a team that does all the hard work so they can goof off, and they'll ALWAYS do so. Even if we switched to a majority vote, players would learn that they can "vote themselves" money, and the whole social contract of the game, that you work together or lose together, fails.

Now, there are cases when a "teamscramble" works well, and sometimes it's ginuinely unbalanced (25 wins in a row, seriously?). Here would be my recommendation for a scramble algoritm:

- Alert the server that the teams will be scrambled next round.
-- Optional; have a policy that teams are scrambled every five rounds**
- At the end of this round, sort all players by score.
- Going down the list assign the first player to RED, the second to BLU, the thrid to RED, etc, etc, until the scramble is complete.

This, in theory, would scramble the teams fairly, placing equal talent on each side. However, people who resent scrambling will leave, or just switch teams again. So you'll have to block team movement, while somehow allowing a temp AFK to switch to spectate to go on a bio-break.

I just don't like the idea of voting yourselves teammates. I think, in 90% of the cases, scrambling isn't needed. Hey! In 90% of scramble votes... scrambling fails! How strange a coinkidink. I think, in all cases except the cosmically aligned 1-in-10 true stacking unbalances, the problem is Class 2 Players who thinks their team should support them. The best part about ignoring scrambles? Those deadweights usually leave, opening the slot for real good team player.

One more quote, from President Kennedy, who invented the Cold War:

Prez. Kennedy said:
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.


Class 2 Whiners are asking what the team can do for them. Real players are asking what they can do for their team (or in the case of Engineers, asking the team to support them supporting the team.)

* Joke, joke. Question: How many people actually believe he INVENTED ELECTRICITY not that he DISCOVERED that Lightning was electricity, specifically the same type of static discharges as are found in a Lynden jar? I bet most of them are Class 2 players.

** I, personally, wouldn't want to play on such servers. By round 5, you've got a core of players who, while the others might goof off, you can depend on. Engies who support you. Spies who backstab the sniper picking off the team instead of the easy-to-slay-but-not-that-dangerous Heavy Goofball and his Medic spinning their minigun from one end of the map to the other.
 
There are certain players that really imbalance teams. "daddy" doesn't seem to play on PL server much any more, I think he defected to cp_egypt. But it used to be the case that he would join the server and win every round for 6 hours. He felt kind of bad about it and would switch teams once every couple of rounds, and it would always be a steamroll. He's just a very good leader with a clear authoritative voice and a strong understanding of the game.

It gets irritating, knowing that you're a better-than-average player but your performance is horrible because your team can't coalesce. And it's especially irritating to have to waste 80% of your game time BEING irritated about it... realize that these times are the best opportunity for you to have a memorable game. If your normal strategies aren't working, try something absolutely nuts with your team, just to shake things up. Try a ridiculously large number of one class. It's a way to get people to listen and coordinate and confuse the enemy. Once people are operating on the same wavelength and interested, you can move to normal strategies without the glazed eyes of constant defeat and boredom. Just a thought.

Daddy took a break from the game because of his wrist problems I believe. And, though he did switch due to steamrolling every now and then, he mostly switched teams because of Hummel. He doesn't like Hummel.

As for the problem at hand, I think the best way to handle it is to force automatic team assignments when a player joins the server. Scrambling just leads to more steamrolling. I've never seen a good scramble.
 
Yeah it seems that forcing an auto team assignment on server join would help. However, do you think it would agitate people to the point where, if they cannot join and go onto their desired team (be that team steamrolling or not), they'll just leave? It'd be a shame for our server rankings if a player joined, realized he couldn't join the team he wants, and then just left.
 

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