Let's have a serious discussion about sides on dust2

[iquizzle]

Hi guys, been lurking the forums for a few days and wanted to provide some feedback. I want to preface this by saying that I love the dust2 server. I think you guys do a great job in promoting a fun atmosphere. I play your dust2 server more than any other server, as I know many other people do.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this, but the sides really aren't very even. Many people think that d2 is naturally a ct sided map, but I've played on other servers where the disparity isn't as bad. I'm not here to say what should be done, just to make some observations about why this is the case.

I spent a few rounds counting every single nade kill and marking it down on paper. After 3 matches (roughly 70 rounds), this was the breakdown:

CT - 112
T - 19

Pretty big difference, yes? I invite other people to count as well. While these don't account for a substantial fraction of the total kills, if you believe it is representative of the proportion of damage done by nades, then the CTs are overwhelmingly winning. I have noticed that when I play CT, I am hardly ever hit by a nade, but as a T, I generally get hit 2-3 times per round.

I am NOT saying that nades should be banned. I believe that the root cause of the lopsided-ness is having $16k per round to spend. With that much money, you can bet that a full server will have 48 nades and 96(!) flashbangs on the map at round start. In the wrong situation, you can spend well over a minute of the round being blind. Additionally, CTs generally stack the map with paras (the most expensive gun), which also favors them with door spamming. Every single CT will also be equipped with a kit, substantially increasing the chance of defusal. In case there's no time, a CT still has a 25% chance of defusing by picking a wire (a fun plugin, I must admit).

The bottom line is that almost nobody actually WANTS to play T. If you autoselect, you'll get T side every time. Your only chance of playing CT is to have a fast connection or spam "2" until you get it.

I wouldn't actually mind playing T as much, except that the sides are so uneven that everyone on T is in a constant state of frustration. 90% of the conversations on T involve how much everyone on the team sucks (which is actually very rarely the case). I don't like sitting down to my computer after work and feeling stressed while I'm trying to relax.

It is possible for Ts to win, but it happens so rarely. Anyway, I hope someone reads this and at least considers the possibility that CTs are given every opportunity to win, while Ts face a larger challenge than is really necessary. Regardless of what is done (or isn't done), I'll continue to play here.

Thanks for reading, :w00t:

iQuizzle

 

[Kaspitone]

The nade problem is obvious: T's are trying to rush into an area and ct's are trying to defend the area. T's always stack up in the same stupid spots on short a and upper tunnels and wait to be naded. The other people dying by nades are the baiters who wait in places like long a/ upper while everyone else is rushing.
I rarely get nade killed unless rushing.

There are a ton of dust2 regulars who only or mostly play T.

The paras can be annoying, but they aren't the end of the world. What it comes down to is T's working together. I've played on T teams that won the majority of the rounds even with almost every ct prenading/ sitting with paras. We used strategies like delaying, faking and rotating, pump faking, rushing with no flashes, etc. (there also was a 45 minute round that went 30-0 to the T's). All it takes is everyone to rush together and to know how to play T.

I prefer the challenge of T to the easy points of CT though CT is really fun at night when all the regulars are on and we have some good conversations going on.


Also, I'm glad you're enjoying the dust2 server. You're fun to play with and add to the positive atmosphere. Thanks.

 

[br33chncl33r]

Yeah, I've started playing dust2 more, but mainly because an admin is rarely on the server, but I still play first, admining when needed.

 

[iquizzle]

The nade problem is obvious: T's are trying to rush into an area and ct's are trying to defend the area. T's always stack up in the same stupid spots on short a and upper tunnels and wait to be naded. The other people dying by nades are the baiters who wait in places like long a/ upper while everyone else is rushing.
I rarely get nade killed unless rushing.

There are a ton of dust2 regulars who only or mostly play T.

The paras can be annoying, but they aren't the end of the world. What it comes down to is T's working together. I've played on T teams that won the majority of the rounds even with almost every ct prenading/ sitting with paras. We used strategies like delaying, faking and rotating, pump faking, rushing with no flashes, etc. (there also was a 45 minute round that went 30-0 to the T's). All it takes is everyone to rush together and to know how to play T.

I prefer the challenge of T to the easy points of CT though CT is really fun at night when all the regulars are on and we have some good conversations going on.


Also, I'm glad you're enjoying the dust2 server. You're fun to play with and add to the positive atmosphere. Thanks.

I agree with you. My point was only that having unlimited $16k money unnaturally lopsides the game toward the CTs. CTs already have nade advantage, but it's worse because every round, every single CT will also buy nades. They can also buy paras every round, which isn't normal.

Ts hardly ever do well. The games I played today were all CT sided. One of them was a 23-0 shutout, another was almost a shutout and the last one was like 19-5 or something. And that seems to be pretty much the normal.

 

[lachlina]

I think its more to do with the map. CTs just have to sit and wait for the Ts to come where as Ts have to push forward and seeing as though the server is almost always full all possible routes are covered.

This problem is the same with Italy. Ts can stay back only having to cover 3 routes i played today on CT and we were beat 23-0, then next game i was CT again and we won 19-10 (rough estimate).

Even though some maps are T sided or CT sided i think the real problem is team stacking, all those people who are too afraid to actually play on the slightly disadvantaged side. If there is a way to change the auto-swap system to switch the top player or even just one of the top 5 players instead of the bottom player it could make a difference.

That's just my 2 cents worth

 

[5starGeneralAlphaSnake]

This is true, most of the time T's are dead and dead again. Alot of the times, its long a rush that people get killed fast or that pesky b rush when you are exiting and the scout behind the box and the 2 guys with para's while the guy with that ak/m4 rips you too. Aswell as the onslaught of flashes and well, i once killed 2 people while flashed. That was one of the best rounds on Dust2 as a t.. I always play T, its fun and we lose alot, but i have fun.
16k is alot to have every round, A para is about 5k. Idk, if anyone would think about lowering it down to a lower Thousand range. Its a idea.
But, i always love the fake rush on long a while rushing a, but the real push is the 6 man team at b. When only 2 people are left at b because they all are rushing past double doors to take out the mid push and the short a push. The snipers get killed looking down long a, so more people have to push into long a. Giving the time to kill the 2 guys and then take the bomb and plant. Then having all the guys from short a and mid a drop back to b through tunnels or mid. Then have the long a guys push up into a and then snipe and kill all the ct's from mid.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

It's to be expected that the side whose initial objective is to camp will win the majority of matches. 16k buy just amplifies that because even if you do outplay the other team, they can just bounce right back instead of having pistols or smgs again, just rebuy another para.

 

[br33chncl33r]

Agreed, I want a classic competitive cs go server, seeing as no source server will be added.

 

[XavierB]

Being naded to death in places like upper B tuns and short with always be a problem and it can't really be stopped by reducing the amount of money you receive since grenades are so cheap.

Para's on the other hand do tick me off quite a lot. I couldn't tell you how many times I've been headshotted by a spraying para from B into upper tunnels, from Ct spawn into mid when I'm trying to get to lower and through the two doors at long.

I wouldn't mind seeing the amount of money you receive at the start of the round to be reduced to limit how often someone can buy an m249 or simply remove them from the server because in most cases, they require no skill.

 

[Dot350]

Despite being the first CSS map I ever played, Dust 2 has become one of my least favorite maps because of what you listed. It seems like I spend more of the round flashed there than any other map. I'd like to see amount of flashes reduced to 1, but that's been talked about before.

The team stacking isn't just Dust 2. Most of the time in the other servers if the teams are unbalanced it is in favor of the defense. I've always joined the team that has less players, and if everyone did that then it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

 

[MoSTaR #GH]

I guess that you play on the server at the wrong times or havent played on it long enough to know that Ts do in fact have winning rounds. Ts can only when if the majority of the team wants to rush or you have good enough players to pick off enough CTs to win the round. CT gets pretty boring fast on Dust2 which is why many players choose to play T side and are willing to rush.

I do agree with the Nade and Para problem on CT but it would be a weird solution for a server to ban nades or paras on one side only, maybe paras on both sides wouldnt be so bad

 

[iquizzle]

I guess that you play on the server at the wrong times or havent played on it long enough to know that Ts do in fact have winning rounds. Ts can only when if the majority of the team wants to rush or you have good enough players to pick off enough CTs to win the round. CT gets pretty boring fast on Dust2 which is why many players choose to play T side and are willing to rush.

I do agree with the Nade and Para problem on CT but it would be a weird solution for a server to ban nades or paras on one side only, maybe paras on both sides wouldnt be so bad

Yes, that would be weird. But I that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that unlimited money makes the map even more CT sided than on "normal" servers.

20 people on CT side shouldn't be able to afford a para every single round. It doesn't make sense.

As an example, I played on here a few days ago after the update occurred and the server plugins were down. We were not receiving 16k every round. I was playing T side, and for once I could actually step on to short A without getting bombarded with nades. It was just a lot better. Sure I got hit by one now and then, but I wasn't consistently losing half of my life to them every single round.

I don't disagree that Ts can win. I have been in the server when Ts win... but this Ts winning once in a blue moon business is not cool.. for either side.

 

[Muffs]

I think paras should out right be banned, on all the servers. We don't need people wall banging double doors and killing ts on cat. Also as to grenades its simple, ts are rushing therefore cts will prenade the areas ts rush. Only solution is to wait for the prenade to be done then wait to get a few picks flashing and then push.


I scrim and esea a lot, there's alwaysvprenades but there's a way around them every time

 

[MoSTaR #GH]

First game of the day, all you need is people willing to rush:

 

[Kaspitone]

Here's the thread poca made when his T team went 30-0: http://edge-gamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2105808

 

[RedDragonKnight]

People wouldn't be needing the para if valve didn't decide to up its damage AND make its recoil non existent all in the same patch
-_-

 

[br33chncl33r]

I have no luck on either team

 

[Snooch]

Snooch's 2 Cents:

Dust 2 is just as CT-sided as Dust 1 is. T's are able to purchase the same items that CT's are able to. EVERYONE starts out with 16k. CT's at long could complain just as much saying they "are flashes for a whole minute" by T's. Anywho, the most crucial component to a successful T-side is good teamwork and communication. I've been on T quite a few times when I get bored of winning on CT side 23-0 etc. So I hope over with a few other players and we tear it up - simply by calling rushes and being backed up by the whole team. T's fall short when people do not work together and spread themselves thin.

Thanks all for today folks, Hot Pockets are ready! DING!

 

[Johnny]

Hi guys, been lurking the forums for a few days and wanted to provide some feedback. I want to preface this by saying that I love the dust2 server. I think you guys do a great job in promoting a fun atmosphere. I play your dust2 server more than any other server, as I know many other people do.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this, but the sides really aren't very even. Many people think that d2 is naturally a ct sided map, but I've played on other servers where the disparity isn't as bad. I'm not here to say what should be done, just to make some observations about why this is the case.

I spent a few rounds counting every single nade kill and marking it down on paper. After 3 matches (roughly 70 rounds), this was the breakdown:

CT - 112
T - 19

Pretty big difference, yes? I invite other people to count as well. While these don't account for a substantial fraction of the total kills, if you believe it is representative of the proportion of damage done by nades, then the CTs are overwhelmingly winning. I have noticed that when I play CT, I am hardly ever hit by a nade, but as a T, I generally get hit 2-3 times per round.

I am NOT saying that nades should be banned. I believe that the root cause of the lopsided-ness is having $16k per round to spend. With that much money, you can bet that a full server will have 48 nades and 96(!) flashbangs on the map at round start. In the wrong situation, you can spend well over a minute of the round being blind. Additionally, CTs generally stack the map with paras (the most expensive gun), which also favors them with door spamming. Every single CT will also be equipped with a kit, substantially increasing the chance of defusal. In case there's no time, a CT still has a 25% chance of defusing by picking a wire (a fun plugin, I must admit).

The bottom line is that almost nobody actually WANTS to play T. If you autoselect, you'll get T side every time. Your only chance of playing CT is to have a fast connection or spam "2" until you get it.

I wouldn't actually mind playing T as much, except that the sides are so uneven that everyone on T is in a constant state of frustration. 90% of the conversations on T involve how much everyone on the team sucks (which is actually very rarely the case). I don't like sitting down to my computer after work and feeling stressed while I'm trying to relax.

It is possible for Ts to win, but it happens so rarely. Anyway, I hope someone reads this and at least considers the possibility that CTs are given every opportunity to win, while Ts face a larger challenge than is really necessary. Regardless of what is done (or isn't done), I'll continue to play here.

Thanks for reading, :w00t:

iQuizzle

A lot of good points iquizzle, playing on the T side requires a huge amount of cooperation from strangers in order to win rounds.

Honestly I don't see leadership changing anything about the server. Their current configuration has had much success in maintaining a playerbase and I don't see them straying from that.

The best thing to do on T side is to get your team to work together. Plan delayed rushes, rush as one, etc etc. You know the drill. CT's are forced to split their team up considerably to cover Long, Short, mid, and tuns. It's easy to overwhelm any position with a coordinated rush.

As far as the grenade thing, that's combated by moving forward. Don't stop mid-rush or you will get nade spammed. It's just the mechanics of the map.

Have fun, bro.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

CT's at long could complain just as much saying they "are flashes for a whole minute" by T's. Anywho, the most crucial component to a successful T-side is good teamwork and communication.

The thing is, CTs are dug into a position of strength. It's a lot easier to turn a flash or duck behind a box when you're just sitting there waiting then when you're trying to pull off a successful rush. The same thing goes for avoiding frags, aside from the fact that CTs can throw them without exposing themselves whereas the Ts do.