League Update: July 19th

[DuckDastardly]

It's the margin of victory or defeat that determines the ELO scores, Darin.

This cant have much to do with it, we won all our matches 4-0.

I think it has more to do with what Cicatriz said and we got the short end of the stick in a weak division. The first three matches we played were against winless teams, and then we beat the other undefeated team in our division before our bye week.(what doesnt make sense to me is the undefeated team wasnt worth any more points than any of the winless teams we beat)


I was informed by one of the EC's in charge that Scrappy would be making a post explaining the elo system he chose to use in greater detail...still waiting to see that.

 

[Cicatriz]

This cant have much to do with it, we won all our matches 4-0.

I think it has more to do with what Cicatriz said and we got the short end of the stick in a weak division. The first three matches we played were against winless teams, and then we beat the other undefeated team in our division before our bye week.(what doesnt make sense to me is the undefeated team wasnt worth any more points than any of the winless teams we beat)


I was informed by one of the EC's in charge that Scrappy would be making a post explaining the elo system he chose to use in greater detail...still waiting to see that.

It goes by who should win. Since you played another team that was 3-0 there wasn't going to be a large drop/raise in your elo score. Lets say my team is 1-2 and we play a team that's 3-0. That 3-0 team SHOULD win, but if they lose we get a TON of points and they lose a ton of points.

It's a very hard system to completely understand, but I've talked to Scrappy extensively on the scoring and league (mainly because I'm so damn addicted to it). I have a feeling because we can't play that many matches (unless we extend the season) elo won't really work for us in the future.

 

[Aneruen]

At the end of the day, this is about having fun. I know I had fun in the season, and I think most others did too. See you all in the playoffs (where nothing is guaranteed!)

 

[Ash//]

At the end of the day, this is about having fun. I know I had fun in the season, and I think most others did too. See you all in the playoffs (where nothing is guaranteed!)

+1 On That.
Hope to Beat you Soon Buddy

Ash//

 

[darin1992]

At the end of the day, this is about having fun. I know I had fun in the season, and I think most others did too. See you all in the playoffs (where nothing is guaranteed!)

Theres the thing that irks me, you wont see me in the playoffs, you'll see the 1-3 teams in the playoffs, and the team that hasn't played any matches.

 

[RESPAWN]

Not to bring up an HLstats argument, but you can kind of think of ELO in terms of HLstats. If you're rank 50 and you get killed by somebody rank 6000, you lose 25 points. Because you should be extremely better than that person. But if you're rank 50 and you get killed by somebody rank 51, you only lose a minimum amount of points.

Same thing with ELO. If you're undefeated in your division, but lose to a winless team, you lose ELO points. If you defeat another undefeated team, you gain a minimal amount of points.

Is the system perfect? No. Does it provide some method of balancing out teams based on their skill level? Yeah.

It could be worse guys. We could have a system like college football where "experts" vote teams into the playoffs.

Just remember, this was the first running of the eGO league. All of us are essentially participants in a Beta program here. Some things have worked well, some things haven't. At the end of this league Scrappy and Tattis will look at what worked and what didn't work, and will incorporate this information into the next running of the league.

In the end, it's all about playing and having fun with fellow eGO members. Despite the fact that Failboat didn't make it into the playoffs, I know that my team still had fun.

 

[darin1992]

I understand that it was the first league trial and everything but the point I'm hoping gets through is that the current system, in my opinion, doesn't work very well. I think that in general with a smaller league setting, that w-l should be more of a deciding factor than who you beat and how badly you beat them.

 

[Cicatriz]

Theres the thing that irks me, you wont see me in the playoffs, you'll see the 1-3 teams in the playoffs, and the team that hasn't played any matches.

I doubt the team that hasn't played any matches (because they broke up like week 1) and the Forfeit Team A will be in there. But if you are the team that's 3-2 (whether you are supposed to be 3-1 or 2-2) all I can say is I'm sorry. You should probably take it up with Scrappy. Whatever the out come, everyone here needs to remember this was our first run at a league. Things definitely need to be adjusted to make sure it's a pleasant and fun event for all.

 

[supertrooper]

so if I understand this right, were implementing a system similar to the BCS. And i think we all know how well that fails at doing what it does.

now, im not saying this is out right a bad system, just what it's compared to it, it should it obviously awful.

 

[darin1992]

Supertrooper, I believe so think its similar to RPI ratings for like the NCAA. But with only 4-5 matches being played it doesn't work as hot I dont think. Either way I just hope something next season works out better for the team im on

 

[RESPAWN]

so if I understand this right, were implementing a system similar to the BCS. And i think we all know how well that fails at doing what it does.

now, im not saying this is out right a bad system, just what it's compared to it, it should it obviously awful.

No, no, no. What I'm saying is that our system is BETTER than the BCS. Truth be told, that's not hard to do, though.

 

[Muscles89]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is that our system is BETTER than the BCS. Truth be told, that's not hard to do, though.

True dat! I think a 6 year old could come up with a better playoff scenario that what the NCAA uses for the BCS.

Are the results finally posted somewhere or is Scrappy still working on it??

 

[DuckDastardly]

Just remember, this was the first running of the eGO league. All of us are essentially participants in a Beta program here. Some things have worked well, some things haven't. At the end of this league Scrappy and Tattis will look at what worked and what didn't work, and will incorporate this information into the next running of the league.

While I understand this is the first running of something of this format within eGO, I think it is also very good for people that were involved with it to voice their opinions and thoughts of this system. It helps to work out some of the kinks associated with it.

Now that I have said that...I dont think this elo rating system is very good for such a short season. Reason? Just look at what happened to my team with being 4-0 and only 8th behind teams that are 3-1 and 2-2. That shouldn't happen if the season is longer. How long? not sure but not just 4 games.

I thank you Cicatriz for at least trying to explain it a little better, I have mentioned it and asked questions about the system(even to Scrappy) and got either someone that really had no clue or was told it was a super secret formula(Scrappy) and never elaborated on. But that being said it still brings to question how the other 4 teams that are 4-0 could get so many more points than us. First game would have been even so few points given to win(since no background yet), the second game you are either favored to win or its close since both are 1-0(so few points again to winner) by the third and fourth games you should be favored and still receive only a few points with a win...So again I am back to square one scratching my head trying to figure out how those top 4 teams all 4-0 got so many more points than my team...

In my honest opinion this system shouldnt be used again UNLESS there are several more games in the equation. I feel more sorry for those teams 2-2 teams that are ranked lower than 0-4 teams and didnt make the playoffs over some 1-4 teams. To me that just doesnt make alot of sense.

 

[russkie]

To Duck:

When you asked me about the formula, I explained it in the same manner that Cicatriz did. I requested for a post to made about the ELO formula and hopefully that will be shared soon. The formula is complicated if you google it on the internet, so I am not sure that will even help.

I do agree that the rating system does not work well for four game season. There were discussions about a longer season, but obviously we went with a shorter season since it was season 1. If there is going to be a second season, it is safe to say that the formula will be changed. I think everyone agrees that it isn't the best choice and that will be one of the enhancements, so don't worry it will be changed to favor a different system.


To Everyone:

Forfeit Team A is just a fake team to handle forfeits and Meet the Fockers disbanded. Those teams are NOT in the playoffs.

Overall, I would like to say thank you to all Event Coordinators who refereed, leadership who supported this endeavor, and all the players. I had a lot of fun working with Sandman in coordinating, refereeing the matches and ensuring that everything went smoothly. I am proud to say that the regular season had no major disciplinary issues and that all members conducted themselves professionally.

I am glad we are getting feedback in a mature manner. I hope to have some sort of QA meeting where we can address season one.

 

[Cicatriz]

The main issue with us using the elo system in our league (this time around) is our multiple divisions.

Elo is a GREAT ranking system. But the way the formula goes is based on two things.
1) The strength of the teams going into a game. Which team has won more? That team should be the winner.
Example:
A) I'm a 5-5 team. My next match is against a 6-4 team. Elo expects me to lose because the other team has a better record. But I win. Now, the strength of the other team is better than mine, but not spectacular. So I gain 6 points in elo rank and they lose 6.

B) I'm a 5-5 team. My next match is against a 9-1 team. Elo expects me to lose because the other team has a better record. But I win. This team is obviously the dominant team in the league, but they mess up and they pay for it. So I gain 18 points in elo rank and they lose 18 points.

2) The score of the game.
Example-
A) I win a game 5-0 against a team with the same record. I get 6 points in elo rank and they lose 6.
B) I win a game 6-5 against a team with the same record. I get 4 points in elo rank and they lose 4.

I don't claim to be an expert in the ELO ranking system(it's very complicated). But these are the basics of it. The strength of the teams and the score of the game. The problem with this first league is that we had 5 divisions and 4 games each. The ELO system thrives on each team playing eachother and a limited amount of leagues. So seasons need to be long and you need to cut it down into a single league or as few as possible.

In the future we need to have longer leagues, more games, less divisions or a combination of those. Problem is a lot of people lost interest in the whole thing after a couple weeks. You have to remember this is eGO and we are not a competitive community. Most of the people here are here to sit back, relax and have a grand ol' time. Which is totally cool, I'm someone that greatly enjoys both the fun loving time and competition. I suspect we'll keep the same basic ideas for our next league, but a different rating system. That's all on the EC team.

Also... Thanks EC team for making this happen

 

[russkie]

Your examples are valid and that is what I've tried to get across in my explanations to the best my ability. We did say this was the rating system for season one, so I think we are holding to it. Like I said though, changes to the system will be made and I think everyone's thoughts here are very valid and heard clearly.

 

[RESPAWN]

While I understand this is the first running of something of this format within eGO, I think it is also very good for people that were involved with it to voice their opinions and thoughts of this system. It helps to work out some of the kinks associated with it.

Oh, I agree 100%. I hope nobody here thought I was trying to get them to pipe down.

<snip>

In my honest opinion this system shouldnt be used again UNLESS there are several more games in the equation. I feel more sorry for those teams 2-2 teams that are ranked lower than 0-4 teams and didnt make the playoffs over some 1-4 teams. To me that just doesnt make alot of sense.

I think that's the general consensus amongst all of us here. With such a short season it's just near impossible to gain enough data for an accurate ELO rating.

That said, I wish you EC guys would hurry up and get the playoffs done here. I'm already looking forward to the next season.

 

[Muscles89]

I agree with Cic, we need a longer season and I think more dedicated teams. Some teams lost interest and disbanded. We need to make sure there are teams that REALLY want to play an entire season. I think the formula would work, but in a more ideal situation.

That being said, I had a great time playing and it was a lot of fun. Can't wait for next season.

 

[ScrappyDoo]

Update and Status stuff:

1. Standings were delayed due to my missing some matches from earlier. That was resolved by Wednesday (Thursday?) but, as some of you have noticed, there's an error. I'm looking into what happened and am aiming to revise the ladder standings by tomorrow night.

2. Once that's done, the 16 teams which are advancing will be posted shortly thereafter.

3. As others have explained, the elo scoring system is not intuitively obvious and even after digging up the 40 line formula from the program code (and no, I'm not exaggerating), it's still not obvious. We won't be using it - at least not solely, in the future.

4. We'll have a feedback session (or as Russkie calls it: a "town hall") to discuss this and other issues, including some exciting changes, after the playoffs are completed. I've been spending a lot of CPU time on the changes which are forthcoming, and I'm excited to be able to share them with all of you soon. Your feedback is also welcome and will help shape the future of the league.

More soon. Again, my apologies for the delays, I know everyone wants to resume matches and see who the inaugural season winner is!

 

[Thereven]

I hear you guys discussing this elo system, but it all gets translated in my head to: "It's like that because it is".

Or: "numbers + numbers + numbers = more numbers"

Or: "It works through magic and pixie dust"

Seriously though, it's not important, cause in the end even the first place winners will get the exact same rewards as the last place winners. We all had fun, we all got to kill each other, and we'll all be exactly the same at the end.



Well, except for me... I stole all the prize money before the matches even started and spent it on a great big tv set. :w00t: